What is C BROWN UP TO?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They have caught guys the same day. Do you remember when they had PB under surveillance in New York and they caught him giving his horse a shot on race day?

The detention barn made it so that some guys couldn't cheat any more. There was the one big trainer who was winning in New York at about a 25% clip and after they initiated the detention barn his win percentage dropped down to about 5% and he movedd all his horses to Delaware.

I agree with you that there are obviously guys that are still cheating and there is stuff that does not need to be administered within a few hours of the race. But at least the detention barn eliminates alot of the conventional cheating that was going on. You can't milkshake a horse 2 hours before the race any more.

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

Name names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop please!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bobby Fischer]

It is possible if not easy to enhance a horse's performance with medication and not get caught. Money and power have been motive to cheat as long as they have existed.
To deny that cheating is occurring is not only naive, it doesn't help anything.

It's like when Barry Bonds when put on 30lbs of muscle in one offseason and anyone with a pulse on the sport could notice, but it took years for most to admit that it is obvious.

It doesn't help the horse to pretend like some of these guys aren't sociopaths who cheat as much as they can within cost and danger of being caught. They are.

Trainer Talent, heavier use oflegal/accepted Drugs, and Money/quality are often enough to move up a horse substantially in their own right.
Not everyone is using some horrible undetectable designer drug, or EPO or pain blocking substance like venom, I'll even guess "most of" move up trainers and move ups are not, but some certainly are.

[MisterB]

As usual, no facts, and arm chair losers.

What a bunch of idiots

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by MisterB

What a bunch of idiots

Name names.

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Name names.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by MisterB

As usual, no facts, and arm chair losers.

What a bunch of idiots

This was a fact filled worthwhile post as usual. Keep posting with such great insight.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork.

??? There's plenty of pharmacologic research about the best time to give lasix. It wasn't a guess, it's based upon furosemides' half-life.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

??? There's plenty of pharmacologic research about the best time to give lasix. It wasn't a guess, it's based upon furosemides' half-life.

Ah no it was actually a guess.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ah no it was actually a guess.

Sure. Okay.

Edit: for those that think there's no research on lasix in racehorses

PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez "furosemide" "equine" 173 hits. That's only the past seven years, not all years of published research previous to that - basic pharmacokinetics, initial use in the racing industry - is available online, one has to look it up the old-fashioned way. Some examples:

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of furosemide after oral administration to horses.

Detection, quantification, and pharmacokinetics of furosemide and its effects on urinary specific gravity following IV administration to horses.

Comparison of serum and urinary concentrations of clenbuterol with and without concomitant administration of furosemide in horses.

Detection of bicarbonate administration (milkshake) in standardbred horses.

Doping in race horses.

Factors influencing pre-race serum concentration of total carbon dioxide in Thoroughbred horses racing in California.

A direct enzyme immunoassay for the measurement of furosemide in horse plasma.

Questions effect of furosemide on racing Thoroughbreds.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Sure. Okay.

Edit: for those that think there's no research on lasix in racehorses

PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez "furosemide" "equine" 173 hits. That's only the past seven years, not all years of published research previous to that - basic pharmacokinetics, initial use in the racing industry - is available online, one has to look it up the old-fashioned way. Some examples:

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of furosemide after oral administration to horses.

Detection, quantification, and pharmacokinetics of furosemide and its effects on urinary specific gravity following IV administration to horses.

Comparison of serum and urinary concentrations of clenbuterol with and without concomitant administration of furosemide in horses.

Detection of bicarbonate administration (milkshake) in standardbred horses.

Doping in race horses.

Factors influencing pre-race serum concentration of total carbon dioxide in Thoroughbred horses racing in California.

A direct enzyme immunoassay for the measurement of furosemide in horse plasma.

Questions effect of furosemide on racing Thoroughbreds.

Where is the link that shows why 4 hours is the gold standard?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Where is the link that shows why 4 hours is the gold standard?

Well, you can go to PubMed, enter my name under "author", pull up one of the papers that comes up, read that paper, and follow the referenced research when lasix and "four hours" is referred to and footnoted in the experiments (which you will have to do via library, those papers are too early to be banked on the internet)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Well, you can go to PubMed, enter my name under "author", pull up one of the papers that comes up, read that paper, and follow the referenced research when lasix and "four hours" is referred to and footnoted in the experiments (which you will have to do via library, those papers are too early to be banked on the internet)

I did and all it did was bring me to a study that said Lasix was most effective given 30 minutes before exercise. That study was done about 20 years after the regular use of Lasix on raceday began.