Ness barn raided at Tampa

Riot · #1 04-21-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Can these bullets beat the normal milkshaking tests? Tampa has been testing for milkshakes for a few years. They nabbed Don Rice (RIP) more than once with that testing.

No. The milkshaking tests measure the total CO2 in the blood, no matter how that TCO2 gets to where it is (lasix shot pre-race, feed, milkshaking, etc)

Any trainer (or vet) that uses Tums or Rolaids (instead of plain Arm & Hammer baking soda) to "milkshake" probably isn't very bright, IMO, as they are, first, wasting a ton of money

, and secondly, using calcium carbonate inside of sodium bicarbonate. Not the same metabolic effect.

Bicarbonate ion is the conjugate base component of bicarbonate:carbonic-acid buffer, the principal extracellular buffer in the body. Plainly, it buffers acid, hopefully delaying muscle fatigue. Sodium bicarb is a great and quick pH buffer, but the massive amounts of sodium can be problematic.

Calcium carbonate (the weak "oral antacids" like Tums and Rolaids) are not antacids for the pH of the blood or extracellular space, they are intra-GI tract antacids. They target excess hydrogen ions within the GI tract (which doesn't affect the blood or extracellular fluid pH). Calcium carbonate will bind with phosphorous in the gut (preventing absorpsion), and the calcium is poorly absorbed from the gut and so passes out and does essentially nothing to the blood in even massive overdose (luckily, as if it was absorbed en mass, the calcium would probably cause cardiac problems). Possibly cause a constipation colic. If they administer it regularly, could screw up the horses bone density.

The effect on the bodies acid-base buffering capacity ... essentially nil.

They aren't cheaters because they are smart.

Cannon Shell · #2 04-21-2009, 09:46 PM

Who said anything about tums or rolaids? They are using paste in dose syringes similar to those used for bute.

Riot · #3 04-21-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who said anything about tums or rolaids? They are using paste in dose syringes similar to those used for bute.

Steve did earlier in the thread. Yes, I can see soda bicarb paste in oral syringes, or even better soda bicarb in delayed-release gelatin capsules (but boy, you'd need alot of capsules, even if you used cattle caps, to get 8-16 oz of bicarb in there, and getting them down intact would be difficult)

Cannon Shell · #4 04-21-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

Steve did earlier in the thread. Yes, I can see soda bicarb paste in oral syringes, or even better soda bicarb in delayed-release gelatin capsules (but boy, you'd need alot of capsules, even if you used cattle caps, to get 8-16 oz of bicarb in there, and getting them down intact would be difficult)

I thought he was just using it as an analogy.

Cannon Shell · #5 04-21-2009, 10:02 PM

Steve's trainer source may be correct as milkshakes do work really well on certain horses and can move them up. We have plenty of proof that they worked as they were legal for years and if bet the Derby you likely bet on a milkshaked horse. But unlike a "hop" some horses didnt run better or actually ran worse on them. You would also see the a major improvement the first time but not the second or third.

Riot · #6 04-21-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Steve's trainer source may be correct as milkshakes do work really well on certain horses and can move them up. We have plenty of proof that they worked as they were legal for years and if bet the Derby you likely bet on a milkshaked horse. But unlike a "hop" some horses didnt run better or actually ran worse on them. You would also see the a major improvement the first time but not the second or third.

Not to mention the dead Standardbreds while trainers tried to get the dose right.

It's very difficult, even if you have a bloodgas machine, an IV line, a bottle of pharmaceutical sodium bicarbonate, and a syringe, to alter a blood gas if necessary in a patient. There's a simple formula that's used. But the body has it's own compensatory mechanisms, and starts fighting any adjustments one makes. It's not utterly simple - you push the pH one way, you will change other things. You do that in a horse that's dehydrated from it's lasix, losing electrolytes in sweat on a hot day, and you could find yourself playing with fire. Or the insurance company.

Certainly one can use sodium bicarbonate to help delay muscle fatigue, and it works. But yeah, getting the dose correct - considering ambient temperature, lasix dose, what the horse ate that day, etc - would be difficult.

By correct I mean a dose that works, but isn't detectable as an overage (overages on TCO2 are set using standard laboratory practice of using standard deviations from the mean). I don't doubt some trainers sneak in their "micro dose" of soda bicarb on race day - but I don't buy that it's as predictable a result as some think (based upon how laboratories have always measured and established TCO2 levels, and what "normal patients" produce, the variations seen, etc). Your observation seems to match that.

I was talking to a vet who does alot of university research into TCO2 last month at a CE lecture. Talking that some handicappers want all TCO2 levels published, even if the levels are below the overage level.

These handicappers maintain that high, but legal levels, are nearly always a result of these trainers using "micro-milkshaking".

I think that will just result in false accusations and a witch hunt for milkshaking in guys whose horses are running at routinely high levels - because yeah, there is a good chance these guys could indeed be micromilkshaking and staying legal, or they could have changed feeds, or given the horse a bigger dose of lasix on a hot day.

Multiple things other than orally administered sodium bicarbonate affect the measurable TCO2, and some people don't want to recognize that.

The Indomitable DrugS · #7 04-21-2009, 10:05 PM

They should make like a 4-in-1 video game where you try to make huge betting scores through larceny.

* For thoroughbred racing - you are a vet .. and you have to come up with the wonder drug strong enough to juice longshots home - and of course you'll need to stop a few short priced horses here and there along the way.

* For harness racing - you're a crooked driver. You have to stiff all your mounts as skillfully as possible to make it look like you're trying.

* For greyhound racing - you're a leadout. You have to sneak the dogs food between races and stuff to stop em ... or give them exlax or something that will give em the sh!ts.

* For Jai-alai - you're some dirty Spaniard. You need to conspire with others to fix matches and throw some games away on your own.

Game could be a hit - and teach a young wave of future bettors how to best capitalize on cinches and get the best bang for their buck from wagers like the trifecta and superfecta.

stonegossard · #8 04-21-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They should make like a 4-in-1 video game where you try to make huge betting scores through larceny.

* For thoroughbred racing - you are a vet .. and you have to come up with the wonder drug strong enough to juice longshots home - and of course you'll need to stop a few short priced horses here and there along the way.

* For harness racing - you're a crooked driver. You have to stiff all your mounts as skillfully as possible to make it look like you're trying.

* For greyhound racing - you're a leadout. You have to sneak the dogs food between races and stuff to stop em ... or give them exlax or something that will give em the sh!ts.

* For Jai-alai - you're some dirty Spaniard. You need to conspire with others to fix matches and throw some games away on your own.

Game could be a hit - and teach a young wave of future bettors how to best capitalize on cinches and get the best bang for their buck from wagers like the trifecta and superfecta.

This is the most brilliant post I have ever seen written by you. Mazel Tov.