Ness barn raided at Tampa

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Can these bullets beat the normal milkshaking tests? Tampa has been testing for milkshakes for a few years. They nabbed Don Rice (RIP) more than once with that testing.

The theory is that shake users have fine-tuned the bi-carb mix and amounts given to keep the CO2 levels in the horse below the threshold that tests as a milkshake positive. Since horses have widely differing levels of CO2 in their systems, the positive level is quite high. So a horse testing just under the threshold positive level can very well have been been shaked.

A very prominent trainer, who has been around, has told me that he is sure that shakes are the majority of the seemingly outrageous performances we see from certain trainers and certain horses.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

m.m..

[MISTERGEE]

all they will find is some different size shoes, a couple tongue ties, and maybe some differnet bits

[philcski]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

m.m..

No way, not that guy

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Mike Maker is a man of the utmost integrity I hear.

[Rudeboyelvis]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/103146.html

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Can these bullets beat the normal milkshaking tests? Tampa has been testing for milkshakes for a few years. They nabbed Don Rice (RIP) more than once with that testing.

No. The milkshaking tests measure the total CO2 in the blood, no matter how that TCO2 gets to where it is (lasix shot pre-race, feed, milkshaking, etc)

Any trainer (or vet) that uses Tums or Rolaids (instead of plain Arm & Hammer baking soda) to "milkshake" probably isn't very bright, IMO, as they are, first, wasting a ton of money , and secondly, using calcium carbonate inside of sodium bicarbonate. Not the same metabolic effect.

Bicarbonate ion is the conjugate base component of bicarbonate:carbonic-acid buffer, the principal extracellular buffer in the body. Plainly, it buffers acid, hopefully delaying muscle fatigue. Sodium bicarb is a great and quick pH buffer, but the massive amounts of sodium can be problematic.

Calcium carbonate (the weak "oral antacids" like Tums and Rolaids) are not antacids for the pH of the blood or extracellular space, they are intra-GI tract antacids. They target excess hydrogen ions within the GI tract (which doesn't affect the blood or extracellular fluid pH). Calcium carbonate will bind with phosphorous in the gut (preventing absorpsion), and the calcium is poorly absorbed from the gut and so passes out and does essentially nothing to the blood in even massive overdose (luckily, as if it was absorbed en mass, the calcium would probably cause cardiac problems). Possibly cause a constipation colic. If they administer it regularly, could screw up the horses bone density.

The effect on the bodies acid-base buffering capacity ... essentially nil.

They aren't cheaters because they are smart.

[Cannon Shell]

Who said anything about tums or rolaids? They are using paste in dose syringes similar to those used for bute.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The theory is that shake users have fine-tuned the bi-carb mix and amounts given to keep the CO2 levels in the horse below the threshold that tests as a milkshake positive. Since horses have widely differing levels of CO2 in their systems, the positive level is quite high. So a horse testing just under the threshold positive level can very well have been been shaked.

A very prominent trainer, who has been around, has told me that he is sure that shakes are the majority of the seemingly outrageous performances we see from certain trainers and certain horses.

Thanks for the info. Steve.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The theory is that shake users have fine-tuned the bi-carb mix and amounts given to keep the CO2 levels in the horse below the threshold that tests as a milkshake positive. Since horses have widely differing levels of CO2 in their systems, the positive level is quite high. So a horse testing just under the threshold positive level can very well have been been shaked.

A very prominent trainer, who has been around, has told me that he is sure that shakes are the majority of the seemingly outrageous performances we see from certain trainers and certain horses.

The alchemists have figured out how to use the alkaline "paste" in a way that when inside a horse (via blood,respiratory or GI tract) during a race, it is able to maintain a high enough Ph during race conditions to avoid anaerobic metabolism and lactic acidosis due to effort or exertion thus the horse doesn't tire.

The additional advantage of these drugs are that they somehow avoid an end product of CO2 measured in blood when tested. Whether the paste is metabolized to COH or COOH or anything else is irrelevant. It's obvious that the alchemy wizards have figured out how to avoid excessive CO2 which is what is tested in venous horse blood.

Nothing new, the criminals are one step ahead of the law......at least for now. Frozen blood samples for all stakes winners would seem to be a good idea for now.

Originally Posted by docicu3

The alchemists have figured out how to use the alkaline "paste" in a way that when inside a horse (via blood,respiratory or GI tract) during a race, it is able to maintain a high enough Ph during race conditions to avoid anaerobic metabolism and lactic acidosis due to effort or exertion thus the horse doesn't tire.

The additional advantage of these drugs are that they somehow avoid an end product of CO2 measured in blood when tested. Whether the paste is metabolized to COH or COOH or anything else is irrelevant. It's obvious that the alchemy wizards have figured out how to avoid excessive CO2 which is what is tested in venous horse blood.

Nothing new, the criminals are one step ahead of the law......at least for now. Frozen blood samples for all stakes winners would seem to be a good idea for now.

With or without bicarb. you are going to go anaerobic.
The bicarb only buffers the pH so the muscles can
still contract and relax properly. Its that low pH that ruins the muscle action.
The protein in the muscle is very sensitive to pH as are almost all proteins.
Lactic acid is going to be produced with or without the shake.
The idea is to pick up those excess hydrogen ions from the lactic acid.

Agreed?
This is how I understand it.

Please discuss if you got something else as I would like to know.
I used to milkshake before 5K's that I was trying to set a PR for.
It never worked.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

With or without bicarb. you are going to go anaerobic.
The bicarb only buffers the pH so the muscles can
still contract and relax properly. Its that low pH that ruins the muscle action.
The protein in the muscle is very sensitive to pH as are almost all proteins.
Lactic acid is going to be produced with or without the shake.
The idea is to pick up those excess hydrogen ions from the lactic acid.

Agreed?
This is how I understand it.

Please discuss if you got something else as I would like to know.
I used to milkshake before 5K's that I was trying to set a PR for.
It never worked.

Too far. Try a 1 1/16th race.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Too far. Try a 1 1/16th race.

If they had run em, I would have tried em.
In any case, I actually kept very close records
of my workouts and race times. And the bicarb
did not help my plodding nature as far as I
could tell.

This is why I am interested as it appears to
help horses, mammals we both are, as it were.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And the bicarb
did not help my plodding nature as far as I
could tell.

Where in a 5K did you hit your "wall" - did you hit a wall in that short race?

I'd load with a low dose of simple and complex carbs at 20 minutes in ... I'm just sayin ...

Originally Posted by Riot

Where in a 5K did you hit your "wall" - did you hit a wall in that short race?

I'd load with a low dose of simple and complex carbs at 20 minutes in ... I'm just sayin ...

Never ran out of fuel in such a short race.
Definitely hit a wall training for a marathon.
A good thing before doing the actual thing.
making sure you are under 3 hrs can lead to lots of problems.

Bleeding nipples. I learned about that the hard way
also. Armpits rubbed raw... the usual torture.
Bandaides and vaseline respectively.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If they had run em, I would have tried em.
In any case, I actually kept very close records
of my workouts and race times. And the bicarb
did not help my plodding nature as far as I
could tell.

This is why I am interested as it appears to
help horses, mammals we both are, as it were.

Cheater!!!!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I used to milkshake before 5K's that I was trying to set a PR for. It never worked.

Because the body is an amazing machine, that corrects whatever nonsense we do to it

Human marathoners can carbohydrate-load, however (if done correctly), Iditarod sled dogs can't (but the dogs can become metabolically adapted to preferentially use fat rather than carbohydrate aerobically).

I have a great interest in looking at feeding sprinters differently than route horses. Few try this in the TB world (although in other horse sports it's done very successfully)

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by pgardn

With or without bicarb. you are going to go anaerobic.
The bicarb only buffers the pH so the muscles can
still contract and relax properly. Its that low pH that ruins the muscle action.
The protein in the muscle is very sensitive to pH as are almost all proteins.
Lactic acid is going to be produced with or without the shake.
The idea is to pick up those excess hydrogen ions from the lactic acid.

Agreed?
This is how I understand it.

Please discuss if you got something else as I would like to know.
I used to milkshake before 5K's that I was trying to set a PR for.
It never worked.

your right about function but acidemia and acidosis are completely different effects.....as long as the blood stays neutral you can run forever which is why marathon runners train at or near the AT

Originally Posted by docicu3

your right about function but acidemia and acidosis are completely different effects.....as long as the blood stays neutral you can run forever which is why marathon runners train at or near the AT

Either way you still are going to get acidosis (ie produce
lactic acid)?

so all the bicarb does is help stabilize blood pH so the horse does
not get acidemia?

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Either way you still are going to get acidosis (ie produce
lactic acid)?

so all the bicarb does in help stabilize blood pH so the horse does
not get acidemia?

The degree of acidemia dictates how much the horse has to breathe to offset the acidosis. If the Ph is neutral you dont have eo waste all that minute ventilation or respiratory rate. There comes a time when an acidotic horse or human cannot breathe fast enough to offset the lactic acid and the horse slows down.

It only helps if your horse can run to begin with it does not make a horse faster