Brother Derek is a fraud...

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

..never liked this horse or his hype...he has never beat any good horses....Baffert loved Bob and John today but he hung like a rat...Cindago living up to his early reputation as being a nice horse....

like i said , what a joke of a statement

[ironprospect]

sorry that was suppose to be cheese

man that cali cow can kick a soccer ball
crank was outrageous

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

..never liked this horse or his hype...he has never beat any good horses....Baffert loved Bob and John today but he hung like a rat...Cindago living up to his early reputation as being a nice horse....

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

In that case, do believe that Bellamy Road was the seond best 3-year-old in the last 30 years next to Secretariat because of his one good race in the Wood that may have been the best 3-year-old performance since Secrartariat's Belmont score?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

In that case, do believe that Bellamy Road was the seond best 3-year-old in the last 30 years next to Secretariat because of his one good race in the Wood that may have been the best 3-year-old performance since Secrartariat's Belmont score?

I think Bellamy Road was a great horse. It's too bad that we'll never know exactly how good he was. They totally mismanged him and now the horse will never run again.

I don't think you can call him the second best 3 year in 30 years, because he only ran one great race(The Wood Memorial). That's really not enough to call him an all-time great. He also ran a very good race in the Travers under adverse conditions.

Nowadays, you can't really expect a horse to run 15 great races. They usually retire pretty quickly. I think Ghostzapper was great even though he only ran about 10 times.

Anyway, BM certainly did not accomplish enough to call him an all-time great.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think Bellamy Road was a great horse. It's too bad that we'll never know exactly how good he was. They totally mismanged him and now the horse will never run again.

I don't think you can call him the second best 3 year in 30 years, because he only ran one great race(The Wood Memorial). That's really not enough to call him an all-time great. He also ran a very good race in the Travers under adverse conditions.

Nowadays, you can't really expect a horse to run 15 great races. They usually retire pretty quickly. I think Ghostzapper was great even though he only ran about 10 times.

Anyway, BM certainly did not accomplish enough to call him an all-time great.

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing[B

]True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably[/b]...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

I dont agree with you here Joel. Oracle, in the midst of his rant, actually makes a pretty good point. Which is...horses go through form cycles. There are plenty of horses that go through stretches in their respective careers in which they look far from what they did in top form.

Is there any question that Brother Derek handles that group from saturday if in top form? Numbers and results support this. Its not like he was stepping up to older horses or better three year olds.

Was Skip Away not a great horse? Was he not at least a very good one? Look at some of the races that he lost. How about Artax? Housebuster? More recently, look at some of the horses that Pico Central lost to when he was off form. Or how about Congaree? Was Shake you down a "fraud" when he was winning every sprint in sight or is seeing him running for a tag at charlestown the fruad?

You may ultimately be right about brother Derek. He may have been a precocious three year old that beat up on a weaker than usual group out west. But...I think i will give him a couple of more races before i decide that for myself. He may very well just be going through a cycle of bad form.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

No, that's not true. Look at Flower Alley even last year. He got beat by 15 lengths in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. Did that race prove much? It obviously didn't prove much because he came back in his next start and ran 2nd in the BC Classic. One bad race doesn't mean much. Most great horses had a few bad races.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

and thats what bd did thru all his preps and the derby, showed up and fired every damn time and and won and ran respectably, your going off one race not knowin the reason for the poor finish. please...............

[letswastemoney]

The El Cajon was the easiest one to handicap for me on the whole card.

Brother Derek and Bob and John were both coming off grueling Triple Crown efforts. They had every reason to look suspect on their first start back.

Cindago earned a 98 beyer as a 2 year old showing he had talent. He had bullets on his worktab. By placing him in this race, his connections seemed very confident in his ability to me. He was rested and ready to fire.

When I looked at the 2/5 odds on BD I thought that was insane! Who would waste money at 2/5? You'd barely get anything back if he did win anyway.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

rupert since i got on here i have to tell you , you are one of the most logical ones on this board always enjoy your insights

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

rupert since i got on here i have to tell you , you are one of the most logical ones on this board always enjoy your insights

Thanks PD. I appreciate the compliment.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

This fraud stuff is really starting to get ridiculous. Joel, I enjoy a good deal of your posts, and your insight but come on man. I didn't bet him at 2-5, and agree that the competition in those races this year was a bit suspect but as a writer you should realize the power of your words. By no means is this horse a fraud. He is a grade 1 winning Cal Bred. Is he the best horse in the world, no, but hardly a fraud.

Didn't mean to be unsensative...it is railbird talk...horsemen talk...didn;t mean to harm anybody or anything...it is light-hearted at best....I'll be politically correct when I have to, but most of the time I speak truthfully, which some people can't handle...

Not a writer anyway...just enjoy writing on the side because I love the game...

I will continue to watch this horse. He had a very rough TC. The Derby was horrible for him. He is game and he can run. We will see. The horse is far from done unless there is some injury we do not know about.