Who will lead the older horse division this year?

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

On what planet do they have the same ability?

Are you saying that Zenyatta is better?

Tiago would have swept all those races against females if he were in them. He has faced the best horses in the world for the past 2 years. He's finished ahead of Curlin. He's beaten Heatseeker in a stretch duel. He's a multiple G1 winner against males. Even if by some chance Zenyatta is better, it won't be by much, maybe 2 or 3 lengths better. But from what I've seen, they look about the same.

[letswastemoney]

Tiago's beyer figures in 2008 ranged from 93 to 110

Zenyatta beyers ranged in 2008 ranged from 94 to 108

They look roughly the same to me.

I'm not saying Zenyatta can't beat grade 1 males, because she can. I'm just saying it won't be in the easy fashion that people think it will be.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Tiago's beyer figures in 2008 ranged from 93 to 110

Zenyatta beyers ranged in 2008 ranged from 94 to 108

They look roughly the same to me.

I'm not saying Zenyatta can't beat grade 1 males, because she can. I'm just saying it won't be in the easy fashion that people think it will be.

Beyer shmeyer---she has already beaten him in workouts, dontcha know--and he got a head start--just like anything else she has worked with, usually males ...

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by prudery

Beyer shmeyer---she has already beaten him in workouts, dontcha know--and he got a head start--just like anything else she has worked with, usually males ...

big whoop. workouts don't always tell who is better in the afternoon.

Facing males is different. She'd win her fair share, but she'd lose some too.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

big whoop. workouts don't always tell who is better in the afternoon.

Facing males is different. She'd win her fair share, but she'd lose some too.

And exactly where did it say that a workout equates to a race ?

And in what races do they give other horses lengths of head starts ?

I have seen in five decades many females facing males---depending on the female, it is not as difficult as you think.

Little 15 hand Cicada duking it out with the 17 hand Ridan, and just going under, Shuvee winning the JCGC at 2 miles twice, Waya, Ta Wee lugging over 140 pounds, are just some I remember.

They both beat and lost to their own and the boys .

And your point is nothing but patronizing ...

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by prudery

And exactly where did it say that a workout equates to a race ?

And in what races do they give other horses lengths of head starts ?

I have seen in five decades many females facing males---depending on the female, it is not as difficult as you think.

Little 15 hand Cicada duking it out with the 17 hand Ridan, and just going under, Shuvee winning the JCGC at 2 miles twice, Waya, Ta Wee lugging over 140 pounds, are just some I remember.

They both beat and lost to their own and the boys .

And your point is nothing but patronizing ...

Well hopefully Tiago and Zenyatta will run against each other one day and we can see for certain. They probably never will run against each other, but it's the only way to know who is better.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Well hopefully Tiago and Zenyatta will run against each other one day and we can see for certain. They probably never will run against each other, but it's the only way to know who is better.

Well, as far as I am concerned, they already have run against each other ...

Tiago never impressed me much, and his third in the BCC was a surprise ...

Finishing ahead of Curlin when that one shot his wad and was not persevered with does not add anything to the thought that he actually could run with him .

Zenyatta intrigues me as she seems both thus far invincible and in possession of reserves untapped .


I see nothing of that in Tiago .

[prudery]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yes, I think Zenyatta is better. Either way, I'm not going to argue hypotheticals with you. But, your "he's finished ahead of Curlin" stuff is silly. Curlin was ridden to win the race and tired late over a surface he doesn't prefer. He was actually a factor in the race. At no point in the Classic was tiago a factor and his 3rd was the definition of a suckup.

I have to know, what is behind your hard on for Zenyatta, and your RollerDoc like obsession with Tiago?

You actually misread my comments on Tiago finishing ahead of Curlin---I dismissed that as false fodder for a future argument .

I know Tiago's third was a suckup---re-read my post ...

You have to know I do not have hard-ons for horses, nor am I equipped to do so with any authority, Hossy ...

And I am not obsessed with Tiago---he is not of enough consequence to me for such emotion.

I will however allow that I have seen many great fillies in the decades I have followed racing , and Zenyatta has " it " for me in many ways .

She is a charismatic individual who races with flair and playfullness , and in the grimy vortex of today's racing she puts a happy spin of hope and quality in said vortex for me----maybe even worthy of a hard-on ....

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by prudery

You actually misread my comments on Tiago finishing ahead of Curlin---I dismissed that as false fodder for a future argument .

I know Tiago's third was a suckup---re-read my post ...

You have to know I do not have hard-ons for horses, nor am I equipped to do so with any authority, Hossy ...

And I am not obsessed with Tiago---he is not of enough consequence to me for such emotion.

I will however allow that I have seen many great fillies in the decades I have followed racing , and Zenyatta has " it " for me in many ways .

She is a charismatic individual who races with flair and playfullness , and in the grimy vortex of today's racing she puts a happy spin of hope and quality in said vortex for me----maybe even worthy of a hard-on ....

Excellent comment. Sounds like a Steve Haskins influence. I saw her at Santa Anita and man was she impressive. Big, long striding filly that just eats up ground.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I was responding to letswastemoney, not you. I agree with you.

Sorry , I have had an absessed tooth and am on major meds---so can I sit on your lap now and say I am sorry ?

[prudery]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

If you want to. I'd settle for some of those meds though.

Oh yuck---I take nothing for meds--they sent me to worshipping at the porcelain alter ...

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yes, I think Zenyatta is better. Either way, I'm not going to argue hypotheticals with you. But, your "he's finished ahead of Curlin" stuff is silly. Curlin was ridden to win the race and tired late over a surface he doesn't prefer. He was actually a factor in the race. At no point in the Classic was tiago a factor and his 3rd was the definition of a suckup.

I have to know, what is behind your hard on for Zenyatta, and your RollerDoc like obsession with Tiago?

I'm not a huge fan of Zenyatta, as we've discussed before. I want to see her race against males in G1 company before having an opinion on how good she really is.

But Tiago, I like how hard he tries. He's always there, even if he doesn't win.

[Danzig]

the last few years, the handicap division has been considered substandard, while the distaff division was felt to be more contentious. so why would zenyatta need to beat substandard horses to get a better rep?

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the last few years, the handicap division has been considered substandard, while the distaff division was felt to be more contentious. so why would zenyatta need to beat substandard horses to get a better rep?

To satisfy those who think beating the opposite sex is the gold standard .

But then, of course, they would wail how bad the boys are, and how it doesn't count anyway .

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by prudery

To satisfy those who think beating the opposite sex is the gold standard .

But then, of course, they would wail how bad the boys are, and how it doesn't count anyway .

Beating the opposite sex is not always doing something better than what you are already doing. There is a feeling among most people that Zenyatta is the best horse in the country this year. A lot of people also feel that Indian Blessing might be the best sprinter in the country. So if a female opponent beats one of them in a female restricted race this year, why should it matter that they didn't beat the boys? It's the same as when people want to give extra credit to a 3yo for beating older horses. That alone is not an accomplishment. Easy Goer beat up on older horses in the Whitney, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup. But he couldn't beat fellow 3yo Sunday Silence when it mattered most. So what did beating older mean in that case? To me, it's about beating the toughest competition. I would have rather seen Zenyatta beat Hystericalady, Proud Spell, Music Note, Ginger Punch, and Cocoa Beach than seen her beat Mast Track and Zappa and Mostacolli Mort just because they are males.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Beating the opposite sex is not always doing something better than what you are already doing. There is a feeling among most people that Zenyatta is the best horse in the country this year. A lot of people also feel that Indian Blessing might be the best sprinter in the country. So if a female opponent beats one of them in a female restricted race this year, why should it matter that they didn't beat the boys? It's the same as when people want to give extra credit to a 3yo for beating older horses. That alone is not an accomplishment. Easy Goer beat up on older horses in the Whitney, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup. But he couldn't beat fellow 3yo Sunday Silence when it mattered most. So what did beating older mean in that case? To me, it's about beating the toughest competition. I would have rather seen Zenyatta beat Hystericalady, Proud Spell, Music Note, Ginger Punch, and Cocoa Beach than seen her beat Mast Track and Zappa and Mostacolli Mort just because they are males.

What about Heatseeker and Go Between? Would you have taken Zenyatta over them on a synthetic racetrack in a fairly run race?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

What about Heatseeker and Go Between? Would you have taken Zenyatta over them on a synthetic racetrack in a fairly run race?

Go Between, hell yes. Heatseeker would have been a tougher deal.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the last few years, the handicap division has been considered substandard, while the distaff division was felt to be more contentious. so why would zenyatta need to beat substandard horses to get a better rep?

Because she has been running in races restricted to only mares, not races open to all older horses. Like it or not, open races are the gold standard.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Because she has been running in races restricted to only mares, not races open to all older horses. Like it or not, open races are the gold standard.

lol
whatever. sorry, i don't think an open race necessarily has a tougher field than a restricted race. the distaff division seemed more exciting all year long than the 'handicap' division. i think this comes down to the same type thinking that demands #1 male blue crab cost more than #1 females...

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Danzig

lol
whatever. sorry, i don't think an open race necessarily has a tougher field than a restricted race. the distaff division seemed more exciting all year long than the 'handicap' division. i think this comes down to the same type thinking that demands #1 male blue crab cost more than #1 females...

there's no way to definitely prove the females were better than the males!! they may have been like everyone has been trying to tell me, but i like seeing clear evidence.