Andy Beyer, Dutrow, DRF

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

Obviously, the biggest "transformation" with Cigar was that he wanted to run on dirt. He showed that early in his career, but his connections were very stubborn or very stupid.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Obviously, the biggest "transformation" with Cigar was that he wanted to run on dirt. He showed that early in his career, but his connections were very stubborn or very stupid.

Exactly CJ... which is part of my point. Generally, since few know the details of what went on with horses before they moved, it's impossible to know why or how they responded better in the care of others. We can analyze PP's till the cows come home, but won't know what was going on to unlock potential or restore lustre in specific horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Cigar made his first two career starts on dirt for Hassinger and I believe his Beyer figs were 90 and 95 ( or something close ). It doesn't feel like Mott performed any miracle other than transfering him to his preferred surface.....finally.

[cmorioles]

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all this is that a lot of these guys, and Dutrow definitely, bet, and they bet a lot.

If they are cheating, they are stealing from everyone, whether you bet on him or against him.

[gales0678]

how do we know rick beat on sat though?

also didn't he have a horse in the next race that was the favorite and was off the board?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by gales0678

how do we know rick beat on sat though?

also didn't he have a horse in the next race that was the favorite and was off the board?

Right...and when do you think he would bet? A favorite or an 8 to 1 shot? Who would he be more likely to juice? A favorite, or an 8 to 1 shot?

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Right...and when do you think he would bet? A favorite or an 8 to 1 shot? Who would he be more likely to juice? A favorite, or an 8 to 1 shot?

again explain to me how you know Rick bet this race?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all this is that a lot of these guys, and Dutrow definitely, bet, and they bet a lot.

If they are cheating, they are stealing from everyone, whether you bet on him or against him.

Dutrow (and others like him) steal from us when they bet their (assumed to be) juiced horses.

Whales steal from us when they're allowed to bet after the race has started. AND
Stewards steal from us with their poor/inconsistent decisions.


I can do something about the former: by looking for patterns. In this sense, cheating trainers are not unlike flawed (or limited availability) data. (For an example of an attempt at 'cheating' the public, take a look at the chart for yesterday's 9th at AQU. A slight misrepresentation of the facts. )

The betting after the fact, and steward issues, are something completely different, however. There's no defense.

Everyone is up in arms that the tracks don't test more stringently for drugs; in order to make the game 'fairer'.

The tracks don't want a 'fair' game.

The focus needs to come off the cheating trainers and on to more significant issues that impact the bettor.