Getting a little ridiculous!

[dalakhani]

The slugging pct over the same period of time is nearly identical. Mattingly led the league in doubles three times over that era. No, he didnt hit as many home runs, but the LEAGUE didnt hit as many home runs and he more than makes up for that with a MUCH HIGHER Batting average and a higher on base pct.

What he will likely be in 2010 doesnt matter for what we are discussing because he could get hit by a bus tomorrow and we will only have his current body of work to judge him by. What Mattingly did after his first six years are also immaterial. That being the case, the numbers and the awards clearly point to mattingly.

I do admit that from a numbers perspective, it is very difficult to find five better than TEX. Could that not be more of a result of the era than the quality of player? I would venture to say that we could take a top position player from ANY position today (except pitcher) and compare him to top players from the 80's at the same position and the numbers would be favorable to the player of this era. I was looking at the year Keith Hernandez won MVP. He was an MVP first baseman with 11 home runs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The slugging pct over the same period of time is nearly identical. Mattingly led the league in doubles three times over that era. No, he didnt hit as many home runs, but the LEAGUE didnt hit as many home runs and he more than makes up for that with a MUCH HIGHER Batting average and a higher on base pct.

What he will likely be in 2010 doesnt matter for what we are discussing because he could get hit by a bus tomorrow and we will only have his current body of work to judge him by. What Mattingly did after his first six years are also immaterial. That being the case, the numbers and the awards clearly point to mattingly.

I do admit that from a numbers perspective, it is very difficult to find five better than TEX. Could that not be more of a result of the era than the quality of player? I would venture to say that we could take a top position player from ANY position today (except pitcher) and compare him to top players from the 80's at the same position and the numbers would be favorable to the player of this era. I was looking at the year Keith Hernandez won MVP. He was an MVP first baseman with 11 home runs.

While it is different eras the awareness of what constitutes value in players has also changed. The year Hernandez won he actually tied Stargell and won witht the help of a media surge that decided he was valuble versus straight stats similar to the year Kirk Gibson won. While I agree that Mattingly had a few really great years if you take his entire career he isnt the player that Texiera is now. The thing that everyone misses about Texiera is that he still is improving and there is no reason to believe he has peaked. Regardless even if i give yoy Mattingly begrudgingly and Murray that still leaves a lot more to go.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While it is different eras the awareness of what constitutes value in players has also changed. The year Hernandez won he actually tied Stargell and won witht the help of a media surge that decided he was valuble versus straight stats similar to the year Kirk Gibson won. While I agree that Mattingly had a few really great years if you take his entire career he isnt the player that Texiera is now. The thing that everyone misses about Texiera is that he still is improving and there is no reason to believe he has peaked. Regardless even if i give yoy Mattingly begrudgingly and Murray that still leaves a lot more to go.

Okay, you gave me Mattingly (I admit...one of my favorites) and Eddie Murray (one of the most underrated players ever to play the game). Lets try a couple of more. I won't get cheap and try to include Pete Rose.

Cecil Cooper. Please dont tell me Tex is better than Cecil Cooper was during his prime.

[Stickhorse]

The Red Sox have picked up free agents but not typically in midseason like the Brewers and Angels last year. Picking up free agents in midseason is not the answer to success.

No doubt the Red Sox don't have the homegrown talent that TB and Philly or even LA. They do have a solid nucleus of homegrown talent right now. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis and Veritek on offense along the arms of Lester & Papelbon.

When the Yankees were at their peak they had Leyritz, Jeter, Rivera, Williams and Pettitte.

Still believe the good ones must be patient, don't go for the quick fix; start with a solid draft.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Don't know how you can say a guy with this post season production is anything special:

2b-zero
3b-zero
hr-zero
rbi-1
run scoring hits in the post-zero

The guy has mainly played on bad pitching teams in Texas. His stats are going to be highly increased due to all the garbage time at bats he had there. I know how hard it is to hit on good pitching teams that play in a pitchers park. Just look at what happens to players that come to the Dodgers. Manny is a freak. Part of the reason the fans were so in love with the guy is because players rarely do that when they come to this team. Far as I am concerned, this TEX has had a huge half of a season with the Halos. Other than that, he hasn't been any star. Not like he's a difference maker. Halos were going to the post anyways. They got him for power in the post, and he provided zero power in the post.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Don't know how you can say a guy with this post season production is anything special:

2b-zero
3b-zero
hr-zero
rbi-1
run scoring hits in the post-zero

The guy has mainly played on bad pitching teams in Texas. His stats are going to be highly increased due to all the garbage time at bats he had there. I know how hard it is to hit on good pitching teams that play in a pitchers park. Just look at what happens to players that come to the Dodgers. Manny is a freak. Part of the reason the fans were so in love with the guy is because players rarely do that when they come to this team. Far as I am concerned, this TEX has had a huge half of a season with the Halos. Other than that he hasn't been any star. Not like he's a difference maker. Halos were going to the post anyways. They got him for power in the post, and he provided zero power in the post.

Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.

You saw what happened when your boy Andruw came to a team that opposing pitchers love to beat. You thought he would come right over and do the same thing he did for Atlanta. Different situation when players come here.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sample size. Please stay out of lucid conversations unless we talk about the Dodgers or Velez. And that is the 1st time I ever heard the bad pitching teams lead to greater offensive stats theory.

Well, there would be a bigger sample size if he showed any power against the SOX. Wasn't exactly the difference maker to get the Rangers past the Halos n' A's either(so he couldn't increase sample size there either.) This isn't exactly a momentum creator like a Victorino etc.You're a Lackey/Tex fan. Both have been going home quickly in the post. Those are Grade 2 players. YOU EVER SEE A BIG WHITE LURCH YA DIDN'T LIKE?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, you gave me Mattingly (I admit...one of my favorites) and Eddie Murray (one of the most underrated players ever to play the game). Lets try a couple of more. I won't get cheap and try to include Pete Rose.

Cecil Cooper. Please dont tell me Tex is better than Cecil Cooper was during his prime.

Cooper was a great hitter in 4 seasons but was pretty ordinary most of his career. He made a lot of contact but rarely walked and does not have the power numbers that tex has. Texiera is a better player than Cooper. Cooper, like Mattingly had a pretty short prime and when looked at over his entire career comes up short.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Cooper was a great hitter in 4 seasons but was pretty ordinary most of his career. He made a lot of contact but rarely walked and does not have the power numbers that tex has. Texiera is a better player than Cooper. Cooper, like Mattingly had a pretty short prime and when looked at over his entire career comes up short.

But Cooper was the superior defender.

If you are going to take Texiera over Bagwell by calling into question the era in which Bagwell put up his numbers, shouldnt we then give more credit to guys like Cooper who put up big numbers in a dead ball era?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But Cooper was the superior defender.

If you are going to take Texiera over Bagwell by calling into question the era in which Bagwell put up his numbers, shouldnt we then give more credit to guys like Cooper who put up big numbers in a dead ball era?

Have you seen Texiera play? You keep calling these guys superior to him in the field and I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. He is a superior defender. Cooper really only had 4 season where he was at the top of the league offensively regardless of era's. Tex iera came into the league as a starter and has hit at the highest levels from the start.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Have you seen Texiera play? You keep calling these guys superior to him in the field and I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. He is a superior defender. Cooper really only had 4 season where he was at the top of the league offensively regardless of era's. Tex iera came into the league as a starter and has hit at the highest levels from the start.

ive seen Texiera play plenty of times but obviously not as many times as you have or as many times as i will see him play this year. Its kind of silly to be going back and forth about defense in regards to first baseman anyway dont you think? Not to say that it isnt important but its more gravy than anything else when a first baseman is actually good with the glove. All of the guys mentioned were good with the glove. Most of the time defense is rep anyway. Hernandez is reputed to be the best ever to play the position but there is really no way to measure it.

Comparing the first six full seasons (that is all texiera has played) Frank Thomas was also better.