Getting a little ridiculous!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Donnnie baseball was better in the field, hit for better average and was just a more dominant all around player. We can only use those years up to where TEX is now because it is impossible to say what TEX will become. Isnt that fair?

No way was he better in the field, no way. Mattingly's peak is not superior to what Texiera has done. And if we include Mattinglys 1990 through 1995 seasons it aint even close. I was being nice but if Mattingly had played in Texas most wouldnt even remember him now.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No way was he better in the field, no way. Mattingly's peak is not superior to what Texiera has done. And if we include Mattinglys 1990 through 1995 seasons it aint even close. I was being nice but if Mattingly had played in Texas most wouldnt even remember him now.

??? Don mattingly was a 9 time gold glove winner and is widely considered the second best fielding first baseman of his era behind Hernandez who was probably the best ever.

No doubt Mattingly played in Yankee Stadium which is pretty friendly to lefties, but he didnt play in the juice era and he didnt play in a launching pad like the ballpark...during the juice era. (not to imply that texiera was ever involved).

Compare Mattingly's first 6 years to Texiera's

Mattingly


1984 23 NYY AL 153 603 91 207 44 2 23 110 1 1 41 33 .343 .381 .537 156 324 8 9 8 1 15 MVP-5,AS
1985 24 NYY AL 159 652 107 211 48 3 35 145 2 2 56 41 .324 .371 .567 156 370 2 15 13 2 15 SS,MVP-1,AS
1986 25 NYY AL 162 677 117 238 53 2 31 113 0 0 53 35 .352 .394 .573 161 388 1 10 11 1 17 SS,MVP-2,AS
1987 26 NYY AL 141 569 93 186 38 2 30 115 1 4 51 38 .327 .378 .559 146 318 0 8 13 1 16 SS,MVP-7,AS
1988 27 NYY AL 144 599 94 186 37 0 18 88 1 0 41 29 .311 .353 .462 128 277 0 8 14 3 13 AS
1989 28 NYY AL 158 631 79 191 37 2 23 113 3 0 51 30 .303 .351 .477 133 301 0 10 18 1 15 MVP-15,AS

Texiera

2003 TEX 146 529 66 137 29 5 26 84 1 2 44 120 .259 .331 .480 254 0 2 5 14 14 0.811
2004 TEX 145 545 101 153 34 2 38 112 4 1 68 117 .281 .370 .560 305 0 2 12 10 6 0.930
2005 TEX 162�† 644 112 194 41 3 43 144 4 0 72 124 .301 .379 .575 370 0 3 5 11 18 0.954
2006 TEX 162�† 628 99 177 45 1 33 110 2 0 89 128 .282 .371 .514 323 0 6 12 4 17 0.885
2007 TEX-ATL 132 494 86 151 33 2 30 105 0 0 72 112 .306 .400 .563 278 0 2 13 7 7 0.963
2008 ATL-LAA 157 574 102 177 41 0 33 121 2 0 97 93 .308 .410 .552 317 0 2 8 3 12 0.962
Total 840 3187 518 906 205 13 203 624 11 3 400 665 .284 .371 .533 1698 0 17 55 49 74 0.904



At the same time in their respective careers,

Mattingly: Texiera

5 gold gloves 2 gold gloves
3 silver slugger 2 silver sluggers
5 all star appearances 1 all star appearance
1 MVP 0 MVP


Chuck, its not even close. Mattingly was a better player. You can't factor what Mattingly did from 1990-95 in comparison because we don't yet know what TEX will do. Be fair here. I realize that yankee fans hold Mattingly's career in a higher regard than his overall career should probably dictate. However, if we are looking strictly at his first six full years, they compare favorably to Texiera and a lot of other really good ball players. Mattingly was widely considered the best player in the game from 1984-1986. No one would say that about Tex.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

??? Don mattingly was a 9 time gold glove winner and is widely considered the second best fielding first baseman of his era behind Hernandez who was probably the best ever.

No doubt Mattingly played in Yankee Stadium which is pretty friendly to lefties, but he didnt play in the juice era and he didnt play in a launching pad like the ballpark...during the juice era. (not to imply that texiera was ever involved).

Compare Mattingly's first 6 years to Texiera's

Mattingly


1984 23 NYY AL 153 603 91 207 44 2 23 110 1 1 41 33 .343 .381 .537 156 324 8 9 8 1 15 MVP-5,AS
1985 24 NYY AL 159 652 107 211 48 3 35 145 2 2 56 41 .324 .371 .567 156 370 2 15 13 2 15 SS,MVP-1,AS
1986 25 NYY AL 162 677 117 238 53 2 31 113 0 0 53 35 .352 .394 .573 161 388 1 10 11 1 17 SS,MVP-2,AS
1987 26 NYY AL 141 569 93 186 38 2 30 115 1 4 51 38 .327 .378 .559 146 318 0 8 13 1 16 SS,MVP-7,AS
1988 27 NYY AL 144 599 94 186 37 0 18 88 1 0 41 29 .311 .353 .462 128 277 0 8 14 3 13 AS
1989 28 NYY AL 158 631 79 191 37 2 23 113 3 0 51 30 .303 .351 .477 133 301 0 10 18 1 15 MVP-15,AS

Texiera

2003 TEX 146 529 66 137 29 5 26 84 1 2 44 120 .259 .331 .480 254 0 2 5 14 14 0.811
2004 TEX 145 545 101 153 34 2 38 112 4 1 68 117 .281 .370 .560 305 0 2 12 10 6 0.930
2005 TEX 162�† 644 112 194 41 3 43 144 4 0 72 124 .301 .379 .575 370 0 3 5 11 18 0.954
2006 TEX 162�† 628 99 177 45 1 33 110 2 0 89 128 .282 .371 .514 323 0 6 12 4 17 0.885
2007 TEX-ATL 132 494 86 151 33 2 30 105 0 0 72 112 .306 .400 .563 278 0 2 13 7 7 0.963
2008 ATL-LAA 157 574 102 177 41 0 33 121 2 0 97 93 .308 .410 .552 317 0 2 8 3 12 0.962
Total 840 3187 518 906 205 13 203 624 11 3 400 665 .284 .371 .533 1698 0 17 55 49 74 0.904



At the same time in their respective careers,

Mattingly: Texiera

5 gold gloves 2 gold gloves
3 silver slugger 2 silver sluggers
5 all star appearances 1 all star appearance
1 MVP 0 MVP


Chuck, its not even close. Mattingly was a better player. You can't factor what Mattingly did from 1990-95 in comparison because we don't yet know what TEX will do. Be fair here. I realize that yankee fans hold Mattingly's career in a higher regard than his overall career should probably dictate. However, if we are looking strictly at his first six full years, they compare favorably to Texiera and a lot of other really good ball players. Mattingly was widely considered the best player in the game from 1984-1986. No one would say that about Tex.

It is very close and you are using some things that are not really valid. Texiera has consistently shown more power than mattingly did. Not to mention that Tex's K's have decreased and his OBP has steadily risen which leads one to believe that his further production will be at the very least as good as it has been and most likely better. Not to mention that he has had the last 2 seasons interupted by mid season trades. The gold gloves are a flawed argument as Tex would have 4 in a row if he had not switched leagues the last 2 years and All star appearances are a poor way to compare players due to the fact that it only takes 1/2 of the year's numbers, is heavily tilted towards big market teams and in essence is a popularity contest. The reason that Mattingly was considered the best player (for perhaps 2 years) is that there was a gap of great players during that period. If he had played in an era with Bonds, Arod or Pujols not to mention Manny he would not have been consider such. Let us not forget that his big rbi years came with the addition of Ricky Henderson hitting in front of him. Texiera has never had a player of that caliber leading off in front of him. Mattingly had 1 really outstanding season that is better than Texiera's. And the fact of the matter is that Mattingly does have a track record after his peak where he simply was a league average player. Understanding that it was due to unfortunate back issues is one thing but the odds that Texiera will fade as badly as Mattingly is highly unlikely and by 2010 will easily have eclipsed him as a player.

[dalakhani]

The slugging pct over the same period of time is nearly identical. Mattingly led the league in doubles three times over that era. No, he didnt hit as many home runs, but the LEAGUE didnt hit as many home runs and he more than makes up for that with a MUCH HIGHER Batting average and a higher on base pct.

What he will likely be in 2010 doesnt matter for what we are discussing because he could get hit by a bus tomorrow and we will only have his current body of work to judge him by. What Mattingly did after his first six years are also immaterial. That being the case, the numbers and the awards clearly point to mattingly.

I do admit that from a numbers perspective, it is very difficult to find five better than TEX. Could that not be more of a result of the era than the quality of player? I would venture to say that we could take a top position player from ANY position today (except pitcher) and compare him to top players from the 80's at the same position and the numbers would be favorable to the player of this era. I was looking at the year Keith Hernandez won MVP. He was an MVP first baseman with 11 home runs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The slugging pct over the same period of time is nearly identical. Mattingly led the league in doubles three times over that era. No, he didnt hit as many home runs, but the LEAGUE didnt hit as many home runs and he more than makes up for that with a MUCH HIGHER Batting average and a higher on base pct.

What he will likely be in 2010 doesnt matter for what we are discussing because he could get hit by a bus tomorrow and we will only have his current body of work to judge him by. What Mattingly did after his first six years are also immaterial. That being the case, the numbers and the awards clearly point to mattingly.

I do admit that from a numbers perspective, it is very difficult to find five better than TEX. Could that not be more of a result of the era than the quality of player? I would venture to say that we could take a top position player from ANY position today (except pitcher) and compare him to top players from the 80's at the same position and the numbers would be favorable to the player of this era. I was looking at the year Keith Hernandez won MVP. He was an MVP first baseman with 11 home runs.

While it is different eras the awareness of what constitutes value in players has also changed. The year Hernandez won he actually tied Stargell and won witht the help of a media surge that decided he was valuble versus straight stats similar to the year Kirk Gibson won. While I agree that Mattingly had a few really great years if you take his entire career he isnt the player that Texiera is now. The thing that everyone misses about Texiera is that he still is improving and there is no reason to believe he has peaked. Regardless even if i give yoy Mattingly begrudgingly and Murray that still leaves a lot more to go.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While it is different eras the awareness of what constitutes value in players has also changed. The year Hernandez won he actually tied Stargell and won witht the help of a media surge that decided he was valuble versus straight stats similar to the year Kirk Gibson won. While I agree that Mattingly had a few really great years if you take his entire career he isnt the player that Texiera is now. The thing that everyone misses about Texiera is that he still is improving and there is no reason to believe he has peaked. Regardless even if i give yoy Mattingly begrudgingly and Murray that still leaves a lot more to go.

Okay, you gave me Mattingly (I admit...one of my favorites) and Eddie Murray (one of the most underrated players ever to play the game). Lets try a couple of more. I won't get cheap and try to include Pete Rose.

Cecil Cooper. Please dont tell me Tex is better than Cecil Cooper was during his prime.

[Stickhorse]

The Red Sox have picked up free agents but not typically in midseason like the Brewers and Angels last year. Picking up free agents in midseason is not the answer to success.

No doubt the Red Sox don't have the homegrown talent that TB and Philly or even LA. They do have a solid nucleus of homegrown talent right now. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis and Veritek on offense along the arms of Lester & Papelbon.

When the Yankees were at their peak they had Leyritz, Jeter, Rivera, Williams and Pettitte.

Still believe the good ones must be patient, don't go for the quick fix; start with a solid draft.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, you gave me Mattingly (I admit...one of my favorites) and Eddie Murray (one of the most underrated players ever to play the game). Lets try a couple of more. I won't get cheap and try to include Pete Rose.

Cecil Cooper. Please dont tell me Tex is better than Cecil Cooper was during his prime.

Cooper was a great hitter in 4 seasons but was pretty ordinary most of his career. He made a lot of contact but rarely walked and does not have the power numbers that tex has. Texiera is a better player than Cooper. Cooper, like Mattingly had a pretty short prime and when looked at over his entire career comes up short.