Barbaro (the Champ)

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That's not the point here. If your criteria for a 3yo being named HOY is that he has to beat older horses, that's fine. But don't say that Bernardini HAS to do it but excuse Barbaro from having to do it. There is nothing that says for sure that Barbaro would have done it so he shouldn't be excused. The point was that it's ridiculous to say that a horse can be the best horse in the country (HOY) but not even win the championship as the best horse in his own division.

As for the Belmont, why run in it? It's a worthless race unless a horse is going for the TC. It proves NOTHING. It's not like back in the older days when the Belmont was a chance to see which of the 3yo's could handle the 12f distance and would be able to compete with the older horses in the fall championship races, which were at 12f and further. Nowdays, this is the only 12f dirt stakes race in the country, at least the only grade one. So it's basically been turned into something totally irrelevant. Unless there is a TC on the line. I know that if I owned a horse that ran in the Derby and didn't win, there is not a chance in hell that he'd come anywhere close to the starting gate for either the Preakness or the Belmont. There are too many other races out there for as much money or nearly as much and I'd rather go in races that are at more manageable distances instead of the Belmont. Also, look at some of the Belmont horses over the past 10 years:

2006-Jazil.....might be done for the year
2005-Afleet Alex never raced again; Giacomo didn't race again that year
2004-Birdstone, two more career races; Smarty never raced again
2003-Funny Cide.....still around (gelding); Empire Maker one more race
2002-War Emblem......few more races after the Belmont
2001-Point Given......two more career races
1999-Charismatic.......never raced again
1998-Real Quiet........didn't race again that year
1997-Silver Charm......didn't race again that year (well, the Malibu on 12/26)

Is this a race that u would want to run in?

Actually, yes. It would mean that my horse had that one more G1 under his belt IF Bernardini could have gotten the distance (which I doubt he could have.) In fact, has Bernardini ever even been a mile and a quarter?

And a horse doesn't always win his division and the HOY. That's just the way it works... I don't do the decision making on that one, but I think that as it stands right now, Barbaro deserves the 3 year old division. Bernardini puts on one hell of a show, but until he beats some quality horses (older or not), I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Actually, yes. It would mean that my horse had that one more G1 under his belt IF Bernardini could have gotten the distance (which I doubt he could have.) In fact, has Bernardini ever even been a mile and a quarter?

And a horse doesn't always win his division and the HOY. That's just the way it works... I don't do the decision making on that one, but I think that as it stands right now, Barbaro deserves the 3 year old division. Bernardini puts on one hell of a show, but until he beats some quality horses (older or not), I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

He's won at 9.5f and at 10f.

I'd like u to tell me one horse that won HOY but wasn't even named champion in his own division.

Again though, the point was not to debate which of the two is more deserving. That's unanswerable as to which is better. Personally, I think it's Bernardini easily. But who knows? The point was that if u think Bernardini could get the award as the best horse period, how could he not get it as the best 3yo? That doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like u to tell me one horse that won HOY but wasn't even named champion in his own division.

It could happen this year, King ... if ...

... if ... as rumored ... they count "Get Well" cards as votes in the 3YO balloting ... but disallow them in the HOTY voting ...

... the awards could be split.

Other than that ... you're right ... it's never happened.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like u to tell me one horse that won HOY but wasn't even named champion in his own division.

Wait ... I've got the answer !!!

It was a trick question ... the answers are ... Twilight Tear, Busher, and Lady's Secret ... because ... they weren't named champions in his division ... they were named champions in hers.

See ... you can fool the rest of them ... but you can't fool me.

[Cajungator26]

I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I stand corrected.

Didn't I already give you an integrity award?

Hmmm ... well OK ... now you've got two of them.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Wait ... I've got the answer !!!

It was a trick question ... the answers are ... Twilight Tear, Busher, and Lady's Secret ... because ... they weren't named champions in his division ... they were named champions in hers.

See ... you can fool the rest of them ... but you can't fool me.

Ok. Good answer. I give with this other person though. I just fail to understand how someone can sit there and say that a horse can be the best horse in the country but not even the best 3yo. I guess that's like taking the recent World Series title that the Chicago White Sox won........as the best team in baseball.....and giving it to the Cubs, who weren't even the best team in their city.

[Slewbopper]

Presently, Barbaro has more earnings because of the Derby purse. Regarding what they have done on the track, Bernie has a very slight edge

Barbaro..2 G1s and 2 G3s
Bernie....2 G1s, a G2, and a G3

[Scurlogue Champ]

Let's just have a horse-petting party and get it over with.

Horses who raced in the derby are coming back to the track now and really asserting themselves, which goes to prove what kind of field it was Barbaro trounced...Showing Up (wins the G1 Secretariart), Lawyer Ron (wins the St. Louis), Bluegrass Cat (wins the G1 Haskell), AP Warrior (wins a stakes race on turf), Point Determined (wins a stakes race), Jazil (wins the G1 Belmont)...
other horses beaten include Brother Derek (G1 Santa Anita winner), Bob and John (G1 Wood winner), Sweetnorthernsaint (IL winner), Sinister Minister (G1 Bluegrass winner)...

[Independent George]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

He's won at 9.5f and at 10f.

I'd like u to tell me one horse that won HOY but wasn't even named champion in his own division.

Again though, the point was not to debate which of the two is more deserving. That's unanswerable as to which is better. Personally, I think it's Bernardini easily. But who knows? The point was that if u think Bernardini could get the award as the best horse period, how could he not get it as the best 3yo? That doesn't make sense.

Bernardini easily??? Why is that ? Barbaro beat more horses in one race than Bernardini beat in 3 and dont tell me Bernardini beat smaller but more quality horses than barbaro beat. In the Travers there was ONE grade one winner & one grade 2 winner. Lots of horses look good beating 4 & 5 horse fields.

i don't see any way in the world for bernardini to get HOTY and then NOT get top 3 yo....

we'll just have to see how it all shakes out at the end of the year, when it's all decided anyway....talk now about it is just that, talk. can be entertaining, but that's about it.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Independent George

Bernardini easily??? Why is that ? Barbaro beat more horses in one race than Bernardini beat in 3 and dont tell me Bernardini beat smaller but more quality horses than barbaro beat. In the Travers there was ONE grade one winner & one grade 2 winner. Lots of horses look good beating 4 & 5 horse fields.

It's not a knock on the ability of Barbaro. I think he was a really good horse also. I just think Bernardini is in a different league. I could be wrong though. I think Bernardini has been one-upping Barbaro from the start though. I know it's only one way of measuring things but look at the Beyer's for the two horses. In his final TC prep, Barbaro got a 103 in the Florida Derby. Bernardini got a 104 in the Withers. Barbaro breaks out with a career high 111 in the Derby. Bernardini gets a 113 in the Preakness. Think about that for a second here. As awesome as Barbaro was in winning the Derby, he would have had to come up with an even better performance figurewise in order to have beaten Bernardini that day. Could he have done it? Nobody knows but I believe that Bernardini wins that race even if Barbaro doesn't break down. Bernardini comes back with a 114 in the Jim Dandy and a 116 in the Travers. That's now three races in a row that he's bested Barbaro's career best. Career average Beyer....Barbaro 96.8, Bernardini 100.8 How about using Bluegrass Cat as a measuring stick. Barbaro beats him by 6 1/2 at 10f. Bernardini beat him by 7 1/2. This is supposedly when Bluegrass Cat is a much improved horse.

It's entirely possible that Barbaro wasn't at his peak and could have improved even more. I don't know if that's true or not but what I do believe IS true is that Barbaro would have HAD to improve more to reach the level that Bernardini is at now. And Bernardini still hasn't even been asked to run.

Well I know it's probably not going to happen. It was merely a suggestion that should Bernardini go on to defeat open stakes company, perhaps a "sharing" of awards, if you will, would be in order. The reason being, Barbaro dominated the 3 year old division, and why punish a horse who did nothing wrong. That's an undefeated horse in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others. But King, that wasn't the point of the thread, and perhaps you failed to read the entire argument as a whole. We could wait to have this debate at the end of the year. But Oracle, the first thing I stated at the beginning was how appalled I was that the ESPN announcers had proclaimed him champion three year old by virtue of his win in the Travers. They are the ones who should have waited. We all know people, voters probably were watching, and can be swayed by what the media is telling them is truth. Hopeful the Eclipse voters take their job seriously, and don't cave to "what everyone else is doing" syndrome, ala Oscar voters "Crash".

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

Well I know it's probably not going to happen. It was merely a suggestion that should Bernardini go on to defeat open stakes company, perhaps a "sharing" of awards, if you will, would be in order. The reason being, Barbaro dominated the 3 year old division, and why punish a horse who did nothing wrong. That's an undefeated horse in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others. But King, that wasn't the point of the thread, and perhaps you failed to read the entire argument as a whole. We could wait to have this debate at the end of the year. But Oracle, the first thing I stated at the beginning was how appalled I was that the ESPN announcers had proclaimed him champion three year old by virtue of his win in the Travers. They are the ones who should have waited. We all know people, voters probably were watching, and can be swayed by what the media is telling them is truth. Hopeful the Eclipse voters take their job seriously, and don't cave to "what everyone else is doing" syndrome, ala Oscar voters "Crash".

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

What happens is Discreet Cat comes and wins his next race and then wins the Breeders Cup Classic--I think that would be enough to win the award. So you would have 3 very deserving horses. I think we should be blessed to have had three very very good horses in the same year and two of them are still running. It was like when Alex and Smarty left us, this year someone goes down and there are two more waiting to fill his star status.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

well, then if we are going to give it now, it should go to barbaro. his winter/spring is better than berns spring/summer. IMO of course....


barbaro, undefeated til the preakness, when he DNF'd.(dammit)
bernardini, undefeated til he ran his first race....hehe, sorry...HAD to.

barbaro, winner on turf, dirt and in the slop.
bern--dirt and slop.
barbaro, winner of the ky derby...
bernie, winner of the preakness...

barbaro, winner of the florida derby.
bern, winner of the withers.

barbaro, largest margin of victory in 60 years! over 19..
bern, largest in 35 over 5.

barbaro, ran 10f succesfully on the first saturday in may.
bern, on the last in august.

barbaro, won the derby after a five week layoff, first time in how many years?

barbaro, seven starts, six wins, one dnf.
bern, six starts, five wins. think he finished fourth in his lone loss in january. (anyone know who won that race??)

barbaro, 2 gr1's, 2 gr 3's
bern--2 gr 1's, 1 gr 2, 1 gr 3

barbaro--2.3 mill
bern---1.6 mill

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

yes, that's true but I wasn't the one who stated we were wasting our time debating the matter at the present. Things have a way of working themselves out...if Bernardini loses in the next two events against older horses, which I'm suspecting he will...this debate is really going to heat up

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's not a knock on the ability of Barbaro. I think he was a really good horse also. I just think Bernardini is in a different league. I could be wrong though. I think Bernardini has been one-upping Barbaro from the start though. I know it's only one way of measuring things but look at the Beyer's for the two horses. In his final TC prep, Barbaro got a 103 in the Florida Derby. Bernardini got a 104 in the Withers. Barbaro breaks out with a career high 111 in the Derby. Bernardini gets a 113 in the Preakness. Think about that for a second here. As awesome as Barbaro was in winning the Derby, he would have had to come up with an even better performance figurewise in order to have beaten Bernardini that day. Could he have done it? Nobody knows but I believe that Bernardini wins that race even if Barbaro doesn't break down. Bernardini comes back with a 114 in the Jim Dandy and a 116 in the Travers. That's now three races in a row that he's bested Barbaro's career best. Career average Beyer....Barbaro 96.8, Bernardini 100.8 How about using Bluegrass Cat as a measuring stick. Barbaro beats him by 6 1/2 at 10f. Bernardini beat him by 7 1/2. This is supposedly when Bluegrass Cat is a much improved horse.

It's entirely possible that Barbaro wasn't at his peak and could have improved even more. I don't know if that's true or not but what I do believe IS true is that Barbaro would have HAD to improve more to reach the level that Bernardini is at now. And Bernardini still hasn't even been asked to run.

Although beyers are a useful tool, I'm not big on them. I'd rather look at the sheets. I'll agree to disagree with you... I'm not sold on Bernardini yet.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Although beyers are a useful tool, I'm not big on them. I'd rather look at the sheets. I'll agree to disagree with you... I'm not sold on Bernardini yet.

What does he need to do for you to be sold? I dont get it. The horse is a multiple Grade I winner. Won two of the four most prestigious races for 3 year olds and he did it in convincing fashion. What else does he need to do!!!!!!!