Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[CSC]

Correction the Lukas stable hasn't been the same since Simon left.

Originally Posted by CSC

And I'm sure there are still some people out there that think OJ is still innocent. Damn circumstantial evidence...

There are a few on here who think he's innocent.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The day we start using a drop in purse winnings as great evidence that a trainer "stopped doping", is ... well, today, on the internet.

That, and knowing, "No horse can make a 20-point Beyer improvement without illegal means" is all we need to know about you horse trainer guys.

I was responding to Reese who was wondering why we were saying Pletchers numbers were so down when he was still the second leading trainer in the country. When an outfit's purses earning drop from the $25 million dollar range to the $11 million dollar range obviously there are a lot of factors in play. Anyone who thinks that Pletchers outfit isnt having an off year is missing the point, is related to Todd or simply doesnt want to see it. I pointed out today that the glory years for him were preceded by an unbelievable strong buying spree by his clients the previous years. Others like the fat man and Phil have pointed out that his horses havent been able to overcome tough trips like they once did. Several others have pointed out he has lost some big owners like Melynk. Others have mentioned his positives and other drug related things. It is a distinct possibility that all of thse factors along with others that we have overlookd or dont know about are to blame.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Lukas hasn't done much since Pletcher left the assistant's role.

Pletcher was not his main NY assistant for that long. Losing Jeff Lukas is probably far more to blame in that area.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Correction the Lukas stable hasn't been the same since Simon left.

It was going the wrong way while i was there

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Riot

But the tiny level found in Pletcher's horse wasn't enough to be able to affect performance. Today that same level is an allowable level under NY racing rules. See post 57.

Todd Pletcher could possibly be the biggest juicer in the business. But, as the guy has a completely inconsequential drug record to date, I'll reserve awarding him that title until he earns it.

Other trainers are currently far, far more deserving.

I don't know if I'd call a 45 day suspension inconsequential, I understand where you are coming from, you need to see the smoking gun in the hand before you can convict so to speak...I for one think it's beneficial to look at all the factors as they have been cited here numerous times already, to ignore them I believe one is not completely looking at the entire picture here.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pletcher was not his main NY assistant for that long. Losing Jeff Lukas is probably far more to blame in that area.

Jeff Lukas almost died when he was kicked by Tabasco Cat, remember that.

Really? Todd got more credit than he probably deserved. One thing is for sure he had some good people work for him. Stewart, Bradshaw, Pletch...

[reese]

Originally Posted by Riot

Did you listen, last week I think it was, to Steve's ATR discussion with the head of RMTC? The level of proactivity was exactly what was discussed. It most certainly can be done.

I heard the program and that guy left out a MAJOR consideration...not once did I hear him mention COSTS...who is going to pay for all this drug testing?

Most tracks cannot even afford to keep the track in good shape. Who is going to pay for all the drug testing? No answer to that question was broached when I was listening.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by reese

I heard the program and that guy left out a MAJOR consideration...not once did I hear him mention COSTS...who is going to pay for all this drug testing?

Most tracks cannot even afford to keep the track in good shape. Who is going to pay for all the drug testing? No answer to that question was broached when I was listening.

I'm all for testing, but to be cynical for a moment will it work? The cheaters always seem to be a few steps ahead of the testers, if something is flagged they will go to something else less detectable. Other sports have had simular problems catching the cheaters, horseracing is no different I surmise. The only way to level the playing field is to let them all cheat, and the chance of that happening is O.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It was going the wrong way while i was there

Why do you think that was Chuck?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm all for testing, but to be cynical for a moment will it work? The cheaters always seem to be a few steps ahead of the testers, if something is flagged they will go to something else less detectable. Other sports have had simular problems catching the cheaters, horseracing is no different I surmise. The only way to level the playing field is to let them all cheat, and the chance of that happening is O.

This is a good point, the penalties need to be harsh enough to deter the cheaters.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Jeff Lukas almost died when he was kicked by Tabasco Cat, remember that.

Really? Todd got more credit than he probably deserved. One thing is for sure he had some good people work for him. Stewart, Bradshaw, Pletch...

I'm not saying that he didnt deserve credit but he was only the head asst for a short time. McLaughlin, hennig and bobby barnett also worked for DWL

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Why do you think that was Chuck?

probably me

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

probably me

Seriously. I understand that you wouldnt want to put it out on the board though if it was something sensitive.

I just find it fascinating that one barn can produce so many top trainers and it would be interesting to know what brought that barn down from the top.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm not saying that he didnt deserve credit but he was only the head asst for a short time. McLaughlin, hennig and bobby barnett also worked for DWL

I guess the obvious question on inquiry minds is why the student(s) have passed the teacher? Almost everyone that worked for him is better statistically than he is when they leave...I don't think even the most challenged handicapper would wager on a Lukas horse with supreme confidence here in the present.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It's real tough to give an opinion huh?

It's apparently far tougher for you to recognize one when you read it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is a distinct possibility that all of thse factors along with others that we have overlookd or dont know about are to blame.

Why are you trying to complicate things with the injection of fact or reason or even thinking about other possibilities?

The overriding theme here is that it clearly all depends upon doping horses. Doping put Pletcher's grade 1 wins up there, lack of doping took the grade 1 numbers down. A trainer's earnings drop - that's clearly lack of doping. A horse is claimed and improves 20 points? Doping. A trainer has one drug positive? A doper. A trainer has no drug positives? Still a doper, testing just can't catch him.

Simple. Simple beyond belief.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Linny

Riot, I missed the show. What day was it? I'll go listen.

I don't doubt that it CAN be done, but it will require alot of the testing labs involved in terms of taking a look for suspicious reactions etc.

I believe it was last Tuesday, during Allday's normal time period? Steve would know.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

No one says a thing about Asmussen? Surely you jest. Tons of grief? Come on. There is one thread here, because he had a positive at the Breeders Cup. What if Asmussen had a positive at the BC? Could you imagine the field day everyone would be having, including yourself? Constant harping? Where?

i say constant harping because it seems that todd gets a lot more criticism than many other trainers.
it just seems lately, not so much here but in the press, that not a peep is said about asmussen and his history--it just seems to be more criticism per event towards some trainers than others. and it's not as tho SA has been clean lately-he's facing a hearing soon, yet is in the running for an award next month-which i feel is shameful.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by CSC

I don't know if I'd call a 45 day suspension inconsequential, I understand where you are coming from, you need to see the smoking gun in the hand before you can convict so to speak...I for one think it's beneficial to look at all the factors as they have been cited here numerous times already, to ignore them I believe one is not completely looking at the entire picture here.

Pletcher was guilty, it was a positive under the rules then, I wouldn't have voted to give him a complete pass.

However - when I compare Pletcher's positive for a whiff of mepivicaine (and the procaine), to Biancone's, "I didn't know the cobra venom was in my barn" and Rod Stewart's, "My wife emptied the fridge and I didn't know either" - then add in Biancone's past (international) history, and Pletcher's past history - well, Pletcher isn't the one I'm going to turn up my nose in disgust at.