Prince of Change reaches for dangerous 'retreads!

[somerfrost]

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Every time I give my opinion you respond with your condescending crap, I guess when you really don't have the tools to engage in intellectual debate you have to rely on sound bite rhetoric. See if you can follow this....comparing Obama's use of religion (in many cases defending himself against attacks by right wing wackos that he's a Islamic terrorist etc) to the Christian conservative rantings of the likes of Pat Robertson, Falwell etc. is void of reason. The folks I campaign against want to dictate who you can love, how you can love them and where you can love them. They want to invoke their "Christian" (read fanatical fundamentalism) values on all of us. These are the folks who picket at the funerals of American servicemen and women holding signs saying those brave defenders of our freedoms are burning in hell cause they died in the defense of a free society that allows folks to dare love the "wrong person". They want to control what you can watch on TV and at the movies, they aren't real fond of folks of color, and would prefer women to be barefoot and pregnant. Sure, I'm talking now about the radical religious right but far too many so-called "compassionate conservatives" and "mainstream" Christian folks drink the Koolade! Timm obviously isn't a fanatic (even though I admit enjoying pulling his chain still), but he falls into the trap of defending the mindset...his fanatical (and yes, that word applies here) hatred of Obama is troubling to me, calling the President-elect names before he takes office, attacking his every move before allowing him the opportunity to govern is indicative of the politics of fear and hatred that the religious (far) right is known for...McCain and Palin briefly exhibited this idiocy before McCain listened to the angels of his better nature and backed off...a move that may have cost him some votes among the fundamentalists but gained back a lot of the respect that folks like me have for him. I don't hate McCain or Palin, I admire them for their service and wish them well but I'm not hearing similar attitudes from their supporters...especially those who intertwine their religious beliefs with politics![/QUOTE

Somer: there is SO much wrong with your post....1) you know damn well Falwell and Robertson don't speak for the majority of conservatives 2) Even worse, you attach Christianity with the likes of Westbro charlatans( I would hope they're run over by the Bikers who've been at the funerals) 3) Regardless of what you say of the President Elect(how's that) there is so much that we don't know or have conveniently dismissed about this man....he's not been vetted completely...certainly not with same vehemence directed at McCain/Palin. 4) McCains' campaign was the worst run campaign in decades, partly due to the splintered GOP, who can't figure out what they stand for in matching up to the Dems. I could go on..but the election is over

See what you did there? You made a sensible post without personal attacks and name calling toward Obama...fair points except for your reference of my point. I clearly referred to Robertson and Falwell as conservative Christian spokesmen...certainly they are that. I likewise clarified that the folks I mainly campaign against are "fanatical fundamentalists"...that is where I place the Westbro idiots. I agree they don't represent the vast majority of the Christian right but far too many folks are in fact drinking their Koolade...despite the Obama victory, 3 states (California the most troubling to me) voted to deny equal rights to gay folks, one making it illegal for gay couples to adopt. I heard ministers and priests invoking "God" when berating Obama...clearly, while not as vile and disgusting as the actions of the lunatics, the thought process is not dissimilar....I'm not anti-Christian, hell...I was one for about 54 years, but the folks who have the lord talk to them and tell them to hate (or invade Iraq) are simply put...dangerous. Bottom line...believe what you want and follow the path that you think is right but stay out of my life....there is more than one path that leads to the devine.

[quote=somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

See what you did there? You made a sensible post without personal attacks and name calling toward Obama...fair points except for your reference of my point. I clearly referred to Robertson and Falwell as conservative Christian spokesmen...certainly they are that. I likewise clarified that the folks I mainly campaign against are "fanatical fundamentalists"...that is where I place the Westbro idiots. I agree they don't represent the vast majority of the Christian right but far too many folks are in fact drinking their Koolade...despite the Obama victory, 3 states (California the most troubling to me) voted to deny equal rights to gay folks, one making it illegal for gay couples to adopt. I heard ministers and priests invoking "God" when berating Obama...clearly, while not as vile and disgusting as the actions of the lunatics, the thought process is not dissimilar....I'm not anti-Christian, hell...I was one for about 54 years, but the folks who have the lord talk to them and tell them to hate (or invade Iraq) are simply put...dangerous. Bottom line...believe what you want and follow the path that you think is right but stay out of my life....there is more than one path that leads to the devine.

Shut up, old man. Free speech is overrated.

[somerfrost]

[quote=Coach Pants]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Shut up, old man. Free speech is overrated.

Aw shucks....no picture? And...I'm seasoned, not old!

[timmgirvan]

[quote=somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

See what you did there? You made a sensible post without personal attacks and name calling toward Obama...fair points except for your reference of my point. I clearly referred to Robertson and Falwell as conservative Christian spokesmen...certainly they are that. I likewise clarified that the folks I mainly campaign against are "fanatical fundamentalists"...that is where I place the Westbro idiots. I agree they don't represent the vast majority of the Christian right but far too many folks are in fact drinking their Koolade...despite the Obama victory, 3 states (California the most troubling to me) voted to deny equal rights to gay folks, one making it illegal for gay couples to adopt. I heard ministers and priests invoking "God" when berating Obama...clearly, while not as vile and disgusting as the actions of the lunatics, the thought process is not dissimilar....I'm not anti-Christian, hell...I was one for about 54 years, but the folks who have the lord talk to them and tell them to hate (or invade Iraq) are simply put...dangerous. Bottom line...believe what you want and follow the path that you think is right but stay out of my life....there is more than one path that leads to the devine.

Robertson and Falwell(dead) aren't spokesmen for Christians...they were merely 'designated that title by the radical left(as I think you claimed to be party to) #2) "are in fact"?...clear obfuscation of the facts by you...where are your facts? This is your supposition only. You are anti-Christian,Somer..you'd rather listen to Nature(not that I need any info on Wiccans) You go from 1 bandwagon to the next, making sure to vent your displeasure(and hate) of President Bush. Frankly, you can do better by using your experience to build up people,imho.

[somerfrost]

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Robertson and Falwell(dead) aren't spokesmen for Christians...they were merely 'designated that title by the radical left(as I think you claimed to be party to) #2) "are in fact"?...clear obfuscation of the facts by you...where are your facts? This is your supposition only. You are anti-Christian,Somer..you'd rather listen to Nature(not that I need any info on Wiccans) You go from 1 bandwagon to the next, making sure to vent your displeasure(and hate) of President Bush. Frankly, you can do better by using your experience to build up people,imho.

Come on Timm, of course they are (were) spokesmen for the religious right...one ran for President the other built a rather substantial empire with millions of followers. Me saying something doesn't make it true...the facts are what they are. Never said I hated Bush (I don't), simply point out the facts...is the country in better shape now than 8 years ago? Of course many folks are drinking the Koolade...you deny that...then please explain the homophobia, the evoking of "God's Will" against Obama, etc. etc. And of course, the obligatory ridicule of my faith...standard in the thinking of those "blessed with the only religious truth". By the way, if you want to ridicule my faith you should understand what my beliefs are...otherwise you come across as ignorant...and your statement, as condescending as it is, is further proof that you do indeed drink the Koolade!

[Antitrust32]

[quote=somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Come on Timm, of course they are (were) spokesmen for the religious right...one ran for President the other built a rather substantial empire with millions of followers. Me saying something doesn't make it true...the facts are what they are. Never said I hated Bush (I don't), simply point out the facts...is the country in better shape now than 8 years ago? Of course many folks are drinking the Koolade...you deny that...then please explain the homophobia, the evoking of "God's Will" against Obama, etc. etc. And of course, the obligatory ridicule of my faith...standard in the thinking of those "blessed with the only religious truth". By the way, if you want to ridicule my faith you should understand what my beliefs are...otherwise you come across as ignorant...and your statement, as condescending as it is, is further proof that you do indeed drink the Koolade!

obviously not, but a lot of things happened the past 8 years that changed the course of the world, and bush did not have control over many things.

I honestly believe that it could have been ANYONE in office the past 8 years - a dem, repub or indy - and we would still be in a similar situation today and that pres would be thought of the way Bush is thought of.

[timmgirvan]

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

obviously not, but a lot of things happened the past 8 years that changed the course of the world, and bush did not have control over many things.

I honestly believe that it could have been ANYONE in office the past 8 years - a dem, repub or indy - and we would still be in a similar situation today and that pres would be thought of the way Bush is thought of.

all things considered..I pretty much agree with you on this.

[dalakhani]

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

obviously not, but a lot of things happened the past 8 years that changed the course of the world, and bush did not have control over many things.

I honestly believe that it could have been ANYONE in office the past 8 years - a dem, repub or indy - and we would still be in a similar situation today and that pres would be thought of the way Bush is thought of.

So you are saying that any other president would have pushed the issue on Iraq the way Bush did?????????????????????

Surely you jest.

[Antitrust32]

[quote=dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

So you are saying that any other president would have pushed the issue on Iraq the way Bush did?????????????????????

Surely you jest.

yes at that time back in 02 or 03 the dems were for the war also. the intelligence would have still been the same (its not like bush and cheney alone came up with the WMD thing - tons of countries invaded Iraq with us because of that international intelligence & I doubt they would have went to war because Bush says there are weapons).

So yes I believe any Prez would have gone to war in Iraq. Like Pgardn said though.. the way it was handled after that would have been different for each individual hypothetical president.

Do you forget that the whole country was behind the war in Iraq when we invaded?

[dalakhani]

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

yes at that time back in 02 or 03 the dems were for the war also. the intelligence would have still been the same (its not like bush and cheney alone came up with the WMD thing - tons of countries invaded Iraq with us because of that international intelligence & I doubt they would have went to war because Bush says there are weapons).

So yes I believe any Prez would have gone to war in Iraq. Like Pgardn said though.. the way it was handled after that would have been different for each individual hypothetical president.

Do you forget that the whole country was behind the war in Iraq when we invaded?

No, the whole country WASNT in favor of Iraq. The whole country was given false information and called traitors if you didnt agree with the "bush doctrine". I dont think most any other, dem or republican, would have lied to congress and to the world for that matter and taken such a brazen stance.

International intelligence? Ton of countries? OMG, you win.

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

obviously not, but a lot of things happened the past 8 years that changed the course of the world, and bush did not have control over many things.

I honestly believe that it could have been ANYONE in office the past 8 years - a dem, repub or indy - and we would still be in a similar situation today and that pres would be thought of the way Bush is thought of.

From the standpoint of the war I would agree to a degree. Gore very clearly indicated that he would have gone into Iraq. After things got underway though... I doubt he would have handled it the same.

But the absolutely horrible associations Bush made in so many areas from VP to FEMA to the Justice Dept. The list is very long. He gave way too many incompetent buddies jobs that require ability. Bush will go down as one of the absolute worst at judging people imo.

[timmgirvan]

[quote=somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Come on Timm, of course they are (were) spokesmen for the religious right...one ran for President the other built a rather substantial empire with millions of followers. Me saying something doesn't make it true...the facts are what they are. Never said I hated Bush (I don't), simply point out the facts...is the country in better shape now than 8 years ago? Of course many folks are drinking the Koolade...you deny that...then please explain the homophobia, the evoking of "God's Will" against Obama, etc. etc. And of course, the obligatory ridicule of my faith...standard in the thinking of those "blessed with the only religious truth". By the way, if you want to ridicule my faith you should understand what my beliefs are...otherwise you come across as ignorant...and your statement, as condescending as it is, is further proof that you do indeed drink the Koolade!

I disagree with the premise that the SPOKE for the conservative Christian!
That they were successful in their endeavours is not the issue. Quid pro Quo on the obligatory bashing of faith,bub...you never miss a beat to deride the folks who disagree with your faith. Of course the country isn't in better shape..DOH!..yet you lay that soley at Bushs feeet? While the various industries were finding a way to get the most money for the least service, they finally burst the magic bubble of greed and are falling swiftly on their butts,and putting the rest of our society at tremendous risk.
As far as homophobia....over half the country(as votes prove) is unable to come to a satisfactory solution. The only Kool-aid being consumed is by the rabid followers of Obama. Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts. Actually, no condescension intended....life is a bitch for sure...we all have to make a decision, though it's true that if you don't make one, you've decided already.

[somerfrost]

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I disagree with the premise that the SPOKE for the conservative Christian!
That they were successful in their endeavours is not the issue. Quid pro Quo on the obligatory bashing of faith,bub...you never miss a beat to deride the folks who disagree with your faith. Of course the country isn't in better shape..DOH!..yet you lay that soley at Bushs feeet? While the various industries were finding a way to get the most money for the least service, they finally burst the magic bubble of greed and are falling swiftly on their butts,and putting the rest of our society at tremendous risk.
As far as homophobia....over half the country(as votes prove) is unable to come to a satisfactory solution. The only Kool-aid being consumed is by the rabid followers of Obama. Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts. Actually, no condescension intended....life is a bitch for sure...we all have to make a decision, though it's true that if you don't make one, you've decided already.

Ok, we disagree on Robertson and Falwell.
Now...the faith thing....don't recall ever using my faith as a criteria for disagreeing with folks...anyway, it's interesting that you justify your remarks in that way. and...."Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts"....thanks for proving my point! For the sake of accuracy, my faith predates Christianity by about 10,000 years...more importantly, you demonstrate exactly what I and others have been saying...more Koolade?

What I find interesting is that the international community
was very much behind going into Afghanistan and ridding
them of the Taliban and finding Bin Laden. The French even
sent troops. Where have they all gone?

I think we have indeed acted very brazen without worrying
about what other countries think. But when we witness what
has happened in Europe through a number of wars, and now
with the mess in Afghanistan, one can understand why we
dont necessarily listen to advice from "the world".

That being said our new president will be much more judicious
in his actions and will consult the international community. But
Obama knows history, he knows that the international community
can also do a very poor job of assessing conflict and how to resolve it.
So he will listen, and give the necessary diplomatic lip service, and then
do what he thinks is best for this country. As it should be.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by pgardn

What I find interesting is that the international community
was very much behind going into Afghanistan and ridding
them of the Taliban and finding Bin Laden. The French even
sent troops. Where have they all gone?

I think we have indeed acted very brazen without worrying
about what other countries think. But when we witness what
has happened in Europe through a number of wars, and now
with the mess in Afghanistan, one can understand why we
dont necessarily listen to advice from "the world".

That being said our new president will be much more judicious
in his actions and will consult the international community. But
Obama knows history, he knows that the international community
can also do a very poor job of assessing conflict and how to resolve it.
So he will listen, and give the necessary diplomatic lip service, and then
do what he thinks is best for this country. As it should be.

Boy...are you a dreamer! WTF? We should listen to the scandal plagued UN?
The situation demanded leadership..and since we are the leaders of the free world. The international community is a pack of sheep, sucking at the breast of America. I daresay there'd be no tremendous national debt if we'd cut them off. But we were the moral conscience of the world, always ready to come to the aid in time of tragedy..and tyranny! I pray that some wisdom shows up in Washington.

[timmgirvan]

[quote=somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Ok, we disagree on Robertson and Falwell.
Now...the faith thing....don't recall ever using my faith as a criteria for disagreeing with folks...anyway, it's interesting that you justify your remarks in that way. and...."Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts"....thanks for proving my point! For the sake of accuracy, my faith predates Christianity by about 10,000 years...more importantly, you demonstrate exactly what I and others have been saying...more Koolade?

Selective answers always from you! We can always take the discussion of faith to PM. In any event, your answers are always replete with some fear crap about the religious right. Well it appears that your fearless leader(or clueless) is getting ready to crush the 2nd amendment, and his SOS will take things away from us for our own good(her words) Accuracy?? please tell me what the Wiccan faith has done in 12,000 years to better humanity? ZIP NADA ZILCH....but don't take that personally. No comment about the main text of my post?? I thought not!

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Selective answers always from you! We can always take the discussion of faith to PM. In any event, your answers are always replete with some fear crap about the religious right. Well it appears that your fearless leader(or clueless) is getting ready to crush the 2nd amendment, and his SOS will take things away from us for our own good(her words) Accuracy?? please tell me what the Wiccan faith has done in 12,000 years to better humanity? ZIP NADA ZILCH....but don't take that personally. No comment about the main text of my post?? I thought not!

Timm.
Christians dont exactly have a stellar record dealing with humanity.

[somerfrost]

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Selective answers always from you! We can always take the discussion of faith to PM. In any event, your answers are always replete with some fear crap about the religious right. Well it appears that your fearless leader(or clueless) is getting ready to crush the 2nd amendment, and his SOS will take things away from us for our own good(her words) Accuracy?? please tell me what the Wiccan faith has done in 12,000 years to better humanity? ZIP NADA ZILCH....but don't take that personally. No comment about the main text of my post?? I thought not!

Obama still isn't in the whitehouse, I find it amazing that you continue the fear-mongering and hate...and then accuse me of what you are doing...lol! More Koolade for the guy in the corner, he's losing it!!
Same with religion...by the way, it's not religion that betters or worsens humanity, it's people! Every act of personal kindness, every acceptance of a human being regardless of differences makes the world a better place. Do you really want a list of things that so-called Christians have done to effect the human condition? Crusades, slaughter of innocent folks deemed to be possessed, genocide...the list is rather lengthy. The point is however that I don't blame Christianity for these things...Christianity, like Hinduism, Judaism, Islam...all the monotheistic religions, preaches love, peace, understanding...unlike you, and your koolade, I don't condemn religions, I blame individuals who pervert them to suit their own purposes. Again, you do a better job than me of proving my point....Wicca is inferior because ___ (fill in the blank like you always do). Who are you to judge me or my beliefs? Why of course, you are privy to the "truth"! and...just for accuracy, I don't consider myself Wiccan.

[Danzig]

[quote=timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Selective answers always from you! We can always take the discussion of faith to PM. In any event, your answers are always replete with some fear crap about the religious right. Well it appears that your fearless leader(or clueless) is getting ready to crush the 2nd amendment, and his SOS will take things away from us for our own good(her words) Accuracy?? please tell me what the Wiccan faith has done in 12,000 years to better humanity? ZIP NADA ZILCH....but don't take that personally. No comment about the main text of my post?? I thought not!

how dare you judge someone due to their faith?! does that somehow make you 'christian'? where did jesus teach your approach to others who don't have your viewpoint regarding religion?

and i don't feel it's a religion that makes things better (crusades, inquisition anyone??) but it's good people who make things better. but i guess using your narrow minded pov, only christians can be 'good'? gimme a break.