FORTUS: Fair Grounds Horses, Trainers, Jocks

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cakes44

LUZZI is an idiot pumper. PVal got more out of horses that wanted to be on or near the lead then other jocks on the same horses. That's what I meant by him being a speed rider. Comparing him to Luzzi is nuts. PVal was almost as good on the turf as he was on the lead, if that makes you feel better about him as a jock in his heyday.

Wasn't comparing him to LUZZI. Just pointing out that LUZZI would be a star on a speed favoring track.

How exactly did PVAL accomplish the bolded part? What sets him apart as a speed rider? Explain.

[cakes44]

Other than getting horses out of the gate quicker and saving horse for the end of a race, I can't explain it very well. I'm not a jockey, I just bet on the races they ride in. He obviously spent most of his time at very speed-favoring tracks, but he was also more successful at it than just about anyone else. I do remember him winning his share of big races outside of California as well. The guy won 7 BC races from 53 mounts for cripes sake.

[the_fat_man]

That's disappointing. You're supporting a position that you can't really defend.

I certainly can tell you what makes a jock a poor speed rider. Court's ride on Sweet October in yesterday's 4th at HOL, would be a nice example of how to rush a horse unnecessarily.

[gales0678]

didn't he rush against le vogyer in the '89 Belmont, allowing Easy Goer and patient Pat Day to win


why does kent d get killed for blowing the TC and not P Val , of course if Day hadn't blown the Preakness , P Val wouldn't have gotten a chance to blow the Belmont

[cakes44]

I'm not really interested in knowing why, to be honest, however disappointing that is to you. It doesn't take a riding expert to know that Gomez riding on a closer is going to get a little more out of the horse than Espinoza got out of the same horse the last race(assuming the horse is close to in the same form). I'd love for you to explain to me the technicalities of exactly what Gomez does differently down the lane than everyone else when he's basically humping the crap out of the animal. Like I said, the "why" isn't all that important to me, but the results definitely are. However it is possible that I could actually learn something useful.

Please don't waste my time with how some horses are rushed to the lead needlessly either. Everybody here sees those everyday and can identify those.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I'm not really interested in knowing why, to be honest, however disappointing that is to you. It doesn't take a riding expert to know that Gomez riding on a closer is going to get a little more out of the horse than Espinoza got out of the same horse the last race(assuming the horse is close to in the same form). I'd love for you to explain to me the technicalities of exactly what Gomez does differently down the lane than everyone else when he's basically humping the crap out of the animal. Maybe I could actually learn something useful.

Please don't waste my time with how some horses are rushed to the lead needlessly. Everybody here sees those everyday and can identify those.

Waste your time? You're yet another clueless horseplayer, feeling the need to basically repeat what you hear/read. You have no idea what makes a good or bad ride or a good/bad jockey. If you did, you'd be able to provide specifics rather than just data. It it weren't for NUMBERS, you wouldn't be in the game. However, you're yet another welcome addition to the handicapping pool.

[cakes44]

Thanks again. You have definitely proven me wrong. PVal is/was a garbage jockey. I wonder how he got any mounts from some of the all-time leading trainers. They must not have ever asked for your permission first.

[philcski]

You guys give wayyyyyyyyy too much credit/blame on jockeys.