Papi Chullo in $16k claimer today

[Linny]

The horse was first off the long layoff, plnging in price and had tons of red flags, even at $16k. I'm not sure but thin Winning Move bought him just before the May 4th '07 race at Belmont. I saw him win the Birdstone in their colors. I don't know when IEAH and Goldfarb (?) got in. They are listed as co owners in the Tue Form .
My guess is that they gave him the race, hoping that no one would talk the risk on him in this economy and the liklihood of having to pay to ship him someplace once DEL ends. The risk paid off, they won and kept the horse.
As for him going from G1 to overnights inside a year well, he was hardly a true G1 horse as his Whitney was a 12 length loss. He was a solid G2-3 horse however. It's not like horses don't plummet. (Anyone noticed Silver Prospector in for a $4k tag at F'Lakes lately. Last winter he was winning at AQU with BSF's over 100.)

BTW, as an aside, I met Papi a couple of years ago in the Saratoga Stakes barn. He was asweet horse, let my son feed him treats etc. Even though he was a colt, he wasn't mouthy or pushy. Whatever happens to him, I hope he gets to put his nice attitude to work someplace.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Linny

The horse was first off the long layoff, plnging in price and had tons of red flags, even at $16k. I'm not sure but thin Winning Move bought him just before the May 4th '07 race at Belmont. I saw him win the Birdstone in their colors. I don't know when IEAH and Goldfarb (?) got in. They are listed as co owners in the Tue Form .
My guess is that they gave him the race, hoping that no one would talk the risk on him in this economy and the liklihood of having to pay to ship him someplace once DEL ends. The risk paid off, they won and kept the horse.
As for him going from G1 to overnights inside a year well, he was hardly a true G1 horse as his Whitney was a 12 length loss. He was a solid G2-3 horse however. It's not like horses don't plummet. (Anyone noticed Silver Prospector in for a $4k tag at F'Lakes lately. Last winter he was winning at AQU with BSF's over 100.)

BTW, as an aside, I met Papi a couple of years ago in the Saratoga Stakes barn. He was asweet horse, let my son feed him treats etc. Even though he was a colt, he wasn't mouthy or pushy. Whatever happens to him, I hope he gets to put his nice attitude to work someplace.

Sorry to Papi's former owners that sold, they shouldn't be lumped in with what happened. IEAH?? Running him in an 18K claimer is kind of different than the sappy pictures of Ivarone consoling Big Brown and all of the stories (from them) about how much they love thier horses... I got blasted when I said I "Hated" them on these threads but they are doing nothing to change my opinion. So instead of "hate" can I say they disappoint me as human beings. But again they are Wallstreet boys and we know how that story is playing out.

[MISTERGEE]

papi has won over 300k, last sat at kee race 2, Tour of the Cat winner of over 1 million $ wins a 16 k race and pays $16.80. I wonder how many 1 mill or more earners have ever run fot that price or less. by the way tour of the cat is a 10yo g

[Linny]

My Cousin Matt was in for a $16k early this year and has over $1m in earnings.

[MISTERGEE]

Originally Posted by Linny

My Cousin Matt was in for a $16k early this year and has over $1m in earnings.

ah yes, i remember that one, i think he was quite a favorite, and didnt run well

[Linny]

I undertand the frustration of people seeing horses with high earnings running for bottom tags. I work with a couple of organizations helping to "outplace" horses that are no longer viable as racehorses. Alot of folks directly involved are not racing people, they are horsemen though. They don't understand how a horse can have $500k in earnings, yet the owner is running him for a $5k tag. Well, if that owner paid $7.5k for him and $5k is where he fits today, it's often that (somewhat smalltime) owner that ends up "on the hook" for a lifetime of retirement care.
Most people away from the track don't understand claiming and the idea that a horse just passes glibly from barn to barn, owner to owner via the claiming route. For most pleasure and showhorse owners, transactions involving your horses are very big deals involving many phone calls, test rides, vet checks, shipping arrangements, insurance agents and what not. They cannot fathom filling out a form and essentially sight unseen, buying a horse for any amount. As such, they don't realize how many people may have been involved and how much expense went into that $500k in earnings. A 9yo horse, with $500k in earnings may well have been a net loss to most of his owners over the course of his career, after expenses are factored in.

[Chalky]

What a move. Now Big Papi is eligible for a number of starter allowance races! I sure hope he is sound enough to continue....I've always liked this horse.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Chalky

What a move. Now Big Papi is eligible for a number of starter allowance races! I sure hope he is sound enough to continue....I've always liked this horse.

Ding ding ding....Stick around, some people might be able to learn some stuff from you

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Linny

The horse was first off the long layoff, plnging in price and had tons of red flags, even at $16k. I'm not sure but thin Winning Move bought him just before the May 4th '07 race at Belmont. I saw him win the Birdstone in their colors. I don't know when IEAH and Goldfarb (?) got in. They are listed as co owners in the Tue Form .
My guess is that they gave him the race, hoping that no one would talk the risk on him in this economy and the liklihood of having to pay to ship him someplace once DEL ends. The risk paid off, they won and kept the horse.
As for him going from G1 to overnights inside a year well, he was hardly a true G1 horse as his Whitney was a 12 length loss. He was a solid G2-3 horse however. It's not like horses don't plummet. (Anyone noticed Silver Prospector in for a $4k tag at F'Lakes lately. Last winter he was winning at AQU with BSF's over 100.)

BTW, as an aside, I met Papi a couple of years ago in the Saratoga Stakes barn. He was asweet horse, let my son feed him treats etc. Even though he was a colt, he wasn't mouthy or pushy. Whatever happens to him, I hope he gets to put his nice attitude to work someplace.

If even that, he was 2nd in two G3's and won an overnight stake. I like the horse, he's always been a cult favorite of ours ("heees fan club is free"), but it's not like he was a world beater.

He's probably worth 30-50k right now. So they drop him in for half that and pick up a quick check gambling, like you said, that nobody grabs him at that price. He'll probably be running for 40-50k over the winter at Aqueduct.

Seeing Shake You Down, the absolute best sprinter in the country for a couple of months in '03, in for 5k really made me angry, this doesn't. It's an acceptable business decision spotting the horse reasonably appropriately.

[jms62]

Although this situation pisses me off, what you are saying makes sense.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by philcski

It's an acceptable business decision spotting the horse reasonably appropriately.

Exactly.

This is not a situation to get emotional over.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Exactly.

This is not a situation to get emotional over.

If the horse had finished last or had been vanned off.. then I could see it..

[Bigsmc]

What if he came back in a Stake and was last or vanned off? Is getting injured in a Stake somehow okay, but getting injured in a 16k plater an injustice to the horse?

Bottom line, if the trainer knows the horse and is not knowingly risking the horse's welfare by running him in a race, what does it matter what level the horse runs at?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

What if he came back in a Stake and was last or vanned off? Is getting injured in a Stake somehow okay, but getting injured in a 16k plater an injustice to the horse?

Bottom line, if the trainer knows the horse and is not knowingly risking the horse's welfare by running him in a race, what does it matter what level the horse runs at?

It doesnt matter... but if he had broke down, people would assume that the trainer knows the horse and KNOWINGLY risked the horse's welfare by running him in a 16K claiming race.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

What if he came back in a Stake and was last or vanned off? Is getting injured in a Stake somehow okay, but getting injured in a 16k plater an injustice to the horse?

Bottom line, if the trainer knows the horse and is not knowingly risking the horse's welfare by running him in a race, what does it matter what level the horse runs at?

Tough to say at any time whether the trainer is risking the horse's welfare, but some circumstances do draw attention. I don't think that any of us know why Papi Chullo was away for a year, but it is fair to assume that something was wrong. Perhaps the horse is over it, and the connections were taking an edge, knowing that no one was likely to claim the horse off such a steep drop, and now he is eligible for starter allowance races all winter.

The problem comes with the recent example of Brookhaven's Money at Belmont. Here is a horse with whom the current connections won a NY Stallion Series race (off the claim) in early June and then had consistently run him in NY-bred allowance company since the stakes win. After a few mediocre efforts, he is dropped precipitously to a $15K NW3L claiming race, and he is pulled up and vanned off after running less than a half mile.

[MISTERGEE]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

What if he came back in a Stake and was last or vanned off? Is getting injured in a Stake somehow okay, but getting injured in a 16k plater an injustice to the horse?

Bottom line, if the trainer knows the horse and is not knowingly risking the horse's welfare by running him in a race, what does it matter what level the horse runs at?

i think the difference may be that if the horse has made you lets say 1mill in purse $ and you feel he is only good enough to run for 16k. then whats the point in running? to make another 10 k in purse $. a horse like tour of the cat is a 10yo g probably every time he goes out there is a certain % he will break. so whats the use. however if you feel he is good enough to run in a stake the obvious problems that usually come with age probably havent shown as much yet. just thinking out loud.

[slotdirt]

I don't have a problem with running horses in 16k claimers; I simply didn't particularly enjoy seeing this horse dropped to that level.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE

i think the difference may be that if the horse has made you lets say 1mill in purse $ and you feel he is only good enough to run for 16k. then whats the point in running? to make another 10 k in purse $. a horse like tour of the cat is a 10yo g probably every time he goes out there is a certain % he will break. so whats the use. however if you feel he is good enough to run in a stake the obvious problems that usually come with age probably havent shown as much yet. just thinking out loud.

While not the case here, remember that older horses with high earnings probably didn't win that money for the current owners. A horse with $500k in earnings at $16k today may have won graded races long ago but the current owner may have claimed him for $30k 3 months ago, has 90 days of day rates and vet/farrier/chiro/etc into him and needs to win a race so he drops him. Is it fair that this owner (who is probably a smaller guy than the one he started with) gets stuck with the "we have to stop on him" phase of his career.
If I had earned $1m from a horse, no way would I be running him for a low tag. In fact, if he were ever claimed from me, I probably go take him back. It's not the same when all that purse money is in someone else's account.
I don't think that trainers should intentionally enter a "ready to break" horse and sadly it happens more than any of us want to see. As a bettor I have to decide if the drop is trying to pick up a purse or trying to lure some poor sap into claiming a seriously sore horse.
From a "human" standpoint I hate to think of the potential havoc a can breakdown cause in terms of human injury. As someone who likes horses, I hate to see them injured at all but especially in a catastrophic breakdown, falling to the ground and suffering a lot of pain, even if it is only for a short time. I hate to see them literally run till they kill themselves. I also hate the effect it has on the sport in general. Think of Barbaro and Eight Belles and how many people asked you how you could be involved in a game that would do that to such lovely animals.