Pletcher explains Flower Alley's last race

[Gander]

Funny that the best horse in his stable would get lost in the shuffle, LOL! Cmmon. Something isnt right.

[gales0678]

tim - maybe d wayne could help Todd turn him around

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by gales0678

tim - maybe d wayne could help Todd turn him around

D Wayne Lukas? He could show him how to break him down. He has had alot of horses in his time and had little success with older horses much less bring one back from a lay up.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by gales0678

tim - maybe d wayne could help Todd turn him around

I assume you're kidding. That will be the day when one of the lowest percentage trainers helps one of the highest percentage trainers. Not only that, despite all of Lukas big wins in the past, he is not considered a good horseman at all. There is no good trainer that would want training advice from Lukas. Despite what any of us think about Lukas whether good or bad, he is the laughing stock around the backstretch. He has a terrible repuation and nobody has any respect for his training ability.

This is different from a guy like Jack Van Berg who doesn't win much any more but is still considered by some to be a good horseman.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Gander

Funny that the best horse in his stable would get lost in the shuffle, LOL! Cmmon. Something isnt right.

than why are they continuing on with him?? if something IS wrong, why keep going? if it's not serious enough to warrant stopping, than it isn't serious enough to keep him from competing, right? i think pletcher took it too easy with him. he had a big plan that worked out on paper, problem is you have to do it, not just show it can be done. the horse obviously wasn't ready to tackle the likes of invasor and sun king...who would have thought it? no one, everyone expected this horse to come out from last fall and win everything he entered....pletcher must have believed it too. oops.

i'm not saying flower alley got lost, but maybe he didn't pay as much attention, maybe he thought flower alley was doing so well that he was on auto pilot with him.

gotta say, i appreciate the likes of lava man and his campaign this year, rather than soft flower alley and his....maybe this year will show people that going too lightly is wrong, moderation is the key. not too much, not too little.

[Rupert Pupkin]

[quote=Danzig188]than why are they continuing on with him?? if something IS wrong, why keep going? if it's not serious enough to warrant stopping, than it isn't serious enough to keep him from competing, right?

No, that's not true. He may have a little problem that doesn't seem to be bothering him too much in the morning, but in the morning he's not even close to being all out. They don't want to inject him if they don't have to, so if they don't think the problem is bothering him, they may leave it alone. But then when the horse runs terrible, they realize that the problem is bothering him and they need to treat it next time. This type of thing happens all the time.

That is why you can't always throw out a horse based on one bad race. There is a good chance that the bad race was due to something physical. But there is also a good chance that they can treat it and get one or two more races out of the horse.

This is a dilemma that trainers face all the time. For example, let's say that Bernardini comes out of his next race with a pretty puffy ankle. Let's say the vet says that he needs two months off. The vet also tells them that they can probably get one or more two more races out of him if they inject him, but they will risk doing some permanent injury to the ankle. What should they do? Some of you may think it's a no-brainer and that they should not run the horse. If they were planning on retiring him at the end of the year any way, they would probably take a shot and try to win the BC Classic. If they are planning on running him next year, they still would not necessarily turn him out. They may take a shot and run him in the BC Classic and just hope that the ankle doesn't get any worse. If they are cautious they would turn him out to the farm immediately to make sure that he comes back 100% next year.

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

than why are they continuing on with him?? if something IS wrong, why keep going? if it's not serious enough to warrant stopping, than it isn't serious enough to keep him from competing, right? i think pletcher took it too easy with him. he had a big plan that worked out on paper, problem is you have to do it, not just show it can be done. the horse obviously wasn't ready to tackle the likes of invasor and sun king...who would have thought it? no one, everyone expected this horse to come out from last fall and win everything he entered....pletcher must have believed it too. oops.

i'm not saying flower alley got lost, but maybe he didn't pay as much attention, maybe he thought flower alley was doing so well that he was on auto pilot with him.

gotta say, i appreciate the likes of lava man and his campaign this year, rather than soft flower alley and his....maybe this year will show people that going too lightly is wrong, moderation is the key. not too much, not too little.

still waiting for lava man to win outside of california and he last race wasnt as good as it looked. he was all out to beat Ace Blue. He's vulnerable in the pacific classic.

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

I tend to agree with this. I think his rep was really earned based on that 2nd place in the BC Classic which was good, but not enough to suddenly make him "thee horse".

[ateamstupid]

I'm inclined to give FA one more shot. If he can't produce next time out, I'll be ready to toss him as well, but off two races, I can't call him totally overrated or washed up..

Yet..

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Its hysterical here that many of the same "experts" on this board who love Invasor have bashed Sun King repeatedly. How exactly does that work? Lets see if I get this right, one horse is king of the world and the other is a nothing rat. Yet the king of the world is the king of the world because he beats the "rat" by a nose? Wow!!
I actually like both horses, and like FA but don't know what to make of his last race either.

[AeWingnut]

I think Flower Alley is big and FAT
Pletcher has to look at the sheets ? Didn't he watch the race?

I thought they were trying to pull a Tiznow.

run two preps and fire in the BC Classic

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its hysterical here that many of the same "experts" on this board who love Invasor have bashed Sun King repeatedly. How exactly does that work? Lets see if I get this right, one horse is king of the world and the other is a nothing rat. Yet the king of the world is the king of the world because he beats the "rat" by a nose? Wow!!
I actually like both horses, and like FA but don't know what to make of his last race either.

Sheesh, Rupert, Invasor is "ridiculously overrated"? Compared to WHOM? The horse has lost 1 race, right? In Dubai to Discreet Cat. He comes here and reels off 3 straight wins, 2 of them in races with hallowed names in American racing. He has 2 of the top 15 BSF's run in route races this year. He's not winning these races by default.

Using Sun King as a measure of how good Invasor is is like using Sharp Humor to measure Barbaro. I'm sure there are horses that did (and will) beat Sharp Humor by more than the 1/2-length that Barbaro beat him in the Florida Derby. Are those horses on a level with Barbaro because they handled Sharp Humor more easily?

oracle, I think there are legitimate reasons to like Invasor a lot more than Sun King. Sun King has run some nice races, but he has thrown in numerous clunkers, too. Consistency counts for a lot.

--Dunbar

[Gander]

People who criticize Lava Man for not winning out of his home state absolutely crack me up. Actually criticizing a horse thats one multiple grade ones this year on 2 different surfaces. Flower Alley rests all winter and cant even be competitive in a race on his bread and butter track. Granted, Invasor is a nice horse and Sun King has really improved, but not even to hit the board in a race you have been targeting for months and months? Wow.

[2 Dollar Bill]

Makes one wonder with all the success of his 2 year olds... they dont show up in the winners circle on the ""first saturday of may""..

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

first of all, we all know that form at two doesn't signify what a horse will do at three, and evidently what a horse does at three doesn't translate to four either. how you can be more impressed by a horse that's one for two on the year, than by a horse who has shipped around the world, and has lost once ever is beyond me.

besides, speculating that FA could beat invasor is one thing, actual results another. looks to me that invasor handled him just fine....

oh, and btw--this is danzig188...i'm at work, so i guess this will be my work sign in....

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Gander

Funny that the best horse in his stable would get lost in the shuffle, LOL! Cmmon. Something isnt right.

Gander,
You and I both know that horses run through pain all the time.
I agree that something isn't right.
Rupert also is correct in his assessment.
DTS