Assault

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'd love to see a trainer today try and work a horse 8 times in between the Preakness and Belmont.

Or how about entering (and winning) a 10f stakes race in between the Preakness and the Belmont? That's what Citation did.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I know.

I was under the impression that those old horses worked much less often than today's horses - and were raced into shape by building fitness and stamina through racing instead of workouts.

That actually isn't true I'm discovering.

If you tried to train a stable of modern race horses that way you'd probably have ruined the careers of every one of them before you even get a race out of them.

[zippyneedsawin]

How do you look up the workouts for a horse that ran in 1946?!?

I'd love to know the work pattern for Kincsem if you have the time.

[Pedigree Ann]

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

BTW Ann those the trainers and vets or those amazing cross country/ steeplechase horses inject like crazy also.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

He did a great job the horse made a ton of money and was syndicated.. When you succeed how can you question the methodology?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

The horse broke down and never raced past June of his three year old year. Is that successful training? Is it possible that the horse may have been better and lasted longer if he had not been trained in that style? That he was doing well despite the methods not because of them?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

Why would you open your barn to anyone? And respectfully how many mordern trainers have learned there craft from great horseman from the "post modern" (whatever that means) times? How many great trainers from 1947 are still around. look there is no doubt some of what you suggest is true but let's face it its a lot easier to medicate and succeed especially when you know no better. if that is all you have known then that is what you do. this business that the breed is different is really a bit far fetched.. Evening Attire's dam has thrown 4 that have races 50 times and 3 that will have raced 70 times.. What breed is she? Should we expect that her daughters will produce fragile foals that can only race 5 times a year because they are part of the new breed?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Why would you open your barn to anyone? And respectfully how many mordern trainers have learned there craft from great horseman from the "post modern" (whatever that means) times? How many great trainers from 1947 are still around. look there is no doubt some of what you suggest is true but let's face it its a lot easier to medicate and succeed especially when you know no better. if that is all you have known then that is what you do. this business that the breed is different is really a bit far fetched.. Evening Attire's dam has thrown 4 that have races 50 times and 3 that will have raced 70 times.. What breed is she? Should we expect that her daughters will produce fragile foals that can only race 5 times a year because they are part of the new breed?

I would open my barn to anyone because i have nothing to hide and I find that when I actually show people things in reality they get a much clearer picture than all these theories that get passed around.
Respectfully, I did learn from a trainer that was around during those golden days and much if not most of what I know about racehorses, training and changing techniques is from him. Therefore i would conclude that I DO know better than just to medicate but according to you 'traditionalists' we should still practice such medical techniques as bloodletting. Of course when we want to pinfire a horse like was done in the old days we are told that is a barbaric and ineffective technique.

Obviously Evening Attire's Dam is an abberation. Cherry picking one mare out of 75000 active mares to prove your point is a bit of a stretch no?

Next time you are at the Hall of fame in Saratoga or anywhere else where you can see pictures of old time horses, take a look at the horses from yesteryear. Then take a look at the modern ones.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

I'll be there this Saturday AM to EXAMINE your methods!

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I'd love to know the work pattern for Kincsem if you have the time.

Did you know that one of her Grosser Preis von Badens originally finished in a dead-heat? And that they raced it off, the full distance, the same day? She won, of course.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Did you know that one of her Grosser Preis von Badens originally finished in a dead-heat? And that they raced it off, the full distance, the same day? She won, of course.

I knew she finished in a dead-heat.. I didn't know it was re-run.. the SAME DAY!!

[Pedigree Ann]

They let them rest a few hours, of course. They had only stopped having races in 4-mile heats in the US a decade or earlier. Kincsem had it easier.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

How do you look up the workouts for a horse that ran in 1946?!?

I read through a copy of Hall of Fame trainer Preston Burch's 55 year old book 'Training Thoroughbred Horses'

If released today - I believe the title would now be called 'How to kill thoroughbred horses with old fashioned methods from pre medication days'

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I read through a copy of Hall of Fame trainer Preston Burch's 55 year old book 'Training Thoroughbred Horses'

If released today - I believe the title would now be called 'How to kill thoroughbred horses with old fashioned methods from pre medication days'

Ironically enough, it was Assault's full brother, Air Lift, who broke down in his career debut at 2 (trainer was Max Hirsch) that led to that famous editorial someone posted a month or two ago entitled "Death of a Racehorse".

Of course, being a full brother is in truth more like being a "half brother", genetically speaking that is, so technically its not that ironic.

But poetically it is...

[MLC]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Or how about entering (and winning) a 10f stakes race in between the Preakness and the Belmont? That's what Citation did.

I know that Citation won that race. However, today's trainers and owners would never take that chance. Too much emphasis on the horse's value after racing and the horrific thought that a loss might lower that value.

[Pedigree Ann]

That is a problem with racing today - breeding is more lucrative than racing, which is opposite of what it was in those days. Stallion fees couldn't match what a top horse could make in a year on the track and retirement was for when he ceased being a top horse. The trend started the other way in the late 70s/early 80s; the Breeders' Cup was an attempt to put up a big enough purse to keep the racing alternative attractive and it really hasn't worked because the purses haven't (and couldn't) keep up with the breeding fees available with 100+ mares bred and shuttling. When I started to watch racing, 40 was a full book of mares - Northern Dancer had like 22 foals (of which 11 or 12 were SWs) in his first crop.