UPDATE: Levine's NJ horses get all clear

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Exactly. They can raid and pull blood until the cows come home. They won't find anything unless the tests are capable of finding the current designer drug du jour or be able to see past the masking agents.

There were no 'designer drugs' involved here..

[the_fat_man]

I wonder what would happen when you combine:

1) an above average intellect

2) a indefatigable work ethic

3) long term experience in the game

4) a genuine love for the game

5) a 'gambler's' understanding of the game


You probably would get a trainer that's a little bit better than that pack of NY trainers who can't quite figure out whether their horses are sprinter or routers or prefer dirt of turf; and thus spend YEARS going repeatedly from one to the other. Clearly, there's the OTHER SIDE of this.

I have no problem assuming that Levine is above average and on a hot streak.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Kasept

There were no 'designer drugs' involved here..

Okay....

You obviously know more about the situation than I.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Okay.. You obviously know more about the situation than I.

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Ok we can go with no EPO.. Save the Smith Barney comment please...So you don't think Levine has found something, perhaps legal. that is currently working in his horses system? Please.. I am not suggesting Levine is a juicer but the best guys are on the cutting edge of the chemical market, meaning if it's out there and legal they are learning about it before people catch up. It's called being ahead of your competition it surely isn't a hot streak. It's a "I am good and I have an advantage currently streak" plain and simple... It's not cheating its beating the system. IMO

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

It's not cheating its beating the system. IMO

I feel like the duck in the Yogi Berra AFLAC commercial.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I feel like the duck in the Yogi Berra AFLAC commercial.

look if it isnt a banned substance its hard work and horsemanship get it? or perhaps Mr Byk is levite(a lil jew culture for your KY self) Blackthroat can explain

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

look if it isnt a banned substance its hard work and horsemanship get it? or perhaps Mr Byk is levite(a lil jew culture for your KY self) Blackthroat can explain

I'm not from KY, and you shouldn't make assumptions on cultural backgrounds.

I get what you're saying: it ain't cheating if you don't get caught. But let's be clear "beating the system" = cheating. (And I'm not accusing Levine of cheating.)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Ok we can go with no EPO.. Save the Smith Barney comment please...So you don't think Levine has found something, perhaps legal. that is currently working in his horses system? Please.. I am not suggesting Levine is a juicer but the best guys are on the cutting edge of the chemical market, meaning if it's out there and legal they are learning about it before people catch up. It's called being ahead of your competition it surely isn't a hot streak. It's a "I am good and I have an advantage currently streak" plain and simple... It's not cheating its beating the system. IMO

i think there are enough repeat offenders out there to draw attention...if racing isn't serious about them, i can't imagine why they would decide to hound someone who has always been clean. that makes NO sense. that would be like ignoring the guy weaving all over the road, beer cans flying out the back, because this OTHER guy, who's never even got a speeding ticket is heading down the road right now. let's go after him.

[ELA]

While the state said this was random, they also said that they are selecting barns/trainers based upon random picks as well as information provided and other factors. The guy is shooting 50% -- why wouldn't they pick him? Is this a shock? Right, wrong or indifferent, he would be the guy I would suspect they would pick. As a side note, the results people are seeing from Levine at Monmouth are understandable to an extent. OTOH, those who automatically call him "cheating" merely from a results standpoint, detailed or not, probably more often than not have to call him "cheating" or come from a place of "he must be cheating" so to speak.

I think he'll end up the meet around where he normally does % wise -- 30%, maybe more due to the distortion of the #'s. The wins will be much higher, but then again, how many people knew that he has twice as many horses on the grounds as he had last year? Anyway, while they might be barking up the wrong tree, you have to be concerned even if you are the ultimate Mr. Clean.

I am all for holding people accountable -- trainer responsibility (perhaps revisited, and modified), owner responsibility (something that is practicle and feasible) and vet responsibility (more random searches, rules, regulations, higher accountability, etc.) and a higher level of overall, universal rules and regulations. However, being concerned even though you are Mr. Clean, extends to the owner as well (although the owner cannot control what he can't control).

People yell and scream because they "just know" that someone is "doing something" or "cheating" -- as a byproduct of the results. Weak arguement as far as I am concerned. Where there's smoke there's fire? Yes, true, not all the time, but true. Do unusually high %'s, record # of wins, etc. automatically mean cheating? No. Does it sometimes? Yes. But to arbitrarily say that you "just know" when it is and when it isn't -- that's BS. It's also BS to say who what % of people are cheating and who is not. This is a very blurred and very tainted landscape we are looking at. It's not a pretty picture and I hope the industry has been pushed into even more action than it's taken in recent years.

Eric

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

It's sad that speculation comes down to it, but there are plenty of drugs, designer or not, that can boost red blood cell counts besides EPO. Did they test for Darbepoietin as well? How about the multitude of synthetic dirvatives developed to treat anemia in humans? I'd sleep better knowing that there is a full panel of these drugs tested for, not just EPO.
When someone is winning at a clip that he is winning at, and their horses fall apart off the claim the way that many of his tend to do, then it is hard to not expect someone to call shenanigans, proof or not.

Again, it is sad - A guy can't win - if he is successful, he'll be accused of cheating. If he loses, he'll get fired. I feel for all of them, they put on the show every day, and get nothing but a bullseye on their backs for it... I personally accept the fact that Leavine is above board and performing at a high level in a perfectly legal manner, because that is what we have to go on. I'd just think it wouldn't be that much more difficult or cost prohibitive to have a nationally sanctioned body run thorough tests via frozen samples.

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

It's sad that speculation comes down to it, but there are plenty of drugs, designer or not, that can boost red blood cell counts besides EPO. Did they test for Darbepoietin as well? How about the multitude of synthetic dirvatives developed to treat anemia in humans? I'd sleep better knowing that there is a full panel of these drugs tested for, not just EPO.
When someone is winning at a clip that he is winning at, and their horses fall apart off the claim the way that many of his tend to do, then it is hard to not expect someone to call shenanigans, proof or not.

Again, it is sad - A guy can't win - if he is successful, he'll be accused of cheating. If he loses, he'll get fired. I feel for all of them, they put on the show every day, and get nothing but a bullseye on their backs for it... I personally accept the fact that Leavine is above board and performing at a high level in a perfectly legal manner, because that is what we have to go on. I'd just think it wouldn't be that much more difficult or cost prohibitive to have a nationally sanctioned body run thorough tests via frozen samples.

Agreed Rudeboy...hope it happens soon.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

I wasn't even going to respond, but....

Absolutely, I think a guy like Bruce Levine could use EPO. I'm sorry that I think this, but his peers have eroded my last thread of trust. I'm sure you know Mr. Levine and have formed your opinion from first hand knowledge. I don't know Mr. Levine, so I can only draw my conclusions by looking at his statistics and compare them with other trainers.

I deleted the rest of my lengthy post. My opinion on drugs in racing is like a gnat on an elephant's ass.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Are you saying that none of the fairly successful trainers would use EPO right now or are you saying that none of them have ever used it?

From everything I have heard, there were definitely a few guys guys using it a few years ago. I don't know about right now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's not that I know more. Did anyone really think a guy like Bruce Levine was going to use EPO? It's silly. He's been in the game 29 years and NEVER HAD A SINGLE VIOLATION. He's winning at a big clip.. knows that there's scrutiny.. and someone thought he'd jeopardize a 3 decade-long career using something like that? Just didn't make sense. If he is actually 'pressing the envelope', he's doing it the old-fashioned way...

Steve...you know better than to use this arguement..."I have too much to lose..." Sounds like Roger Clemens. He didnt fail a drug test either...

I am not implying that Levine is clean or dirty. But the defense that "i have never had a violation" means that they may just be a careful cheater as opposed to the sloppy ones who regularly make headlines. As Eric points out with regularity, it is close to impossible or at least hard to tell who is clean and who isnt anymore. As a trainer I just say that we all pretty much use the same feed, the same hay, the same help, the same tracks, the same vets, the same jockeys...yet some guys seem to have magical powers despite all the similarities. It is hard not to be skeptical when there is no apparent advantage yet the numbers become extraordinary. A clembuterol positive doesnt make a trainer dirty anymore than a "spotless" record makes anyone clean. The REAL drug issue that Andy and others have spoke about wont show up on anybody's record because the commissions are testing for stuff that pretty much went out of style 10 years ago.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Steve...you know better than to use this arguement..."I have too much to lose..." Sounds like Roger Clemens. He didnt fail a drug test either...

I am not implying that Levine is clean or dirty. But the defense that "i have never had a violation" means that they may just be a careful cheater as opposed to the sloppy ones who regularly make headlines. As Eric points out with regularity, it is close to impossible or at least hard to tell who is clean and who isnt anymore. As a trainer I just say that we all pretty much use the same feed, the same hay, the same help, the same tracks, the same vets, the same jockeys...yet some guys seem to have magical powers despite all the similarities. It is hard not to be skeptical when there is no apparent advantage yet the numbers become extraordinary. A clembuterol positive doesnt make a trainer dirty anymore than a "spotless" record makes anyone clean. The REAL drug issue that Andy and others have spoke about wont show up on anybody's record because the commissions are testing for stuff that pretty much went out of style 10 years ago.

I hear you.. I was making the point that it seemed ridiculous that NJ officials thought there was a chance he would be caught using EPO. As I said, if he's taking an edge, he's doing it 'conventionally'...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I hear you.. I was making the point that it seemed ridiculous that NJ officials thought there was a chance he would be caught using EPO. As I said, if he's taking an edge, he's doing it 'conventionally'...

The worst thing that could have happened was the stumbled onto those idiots at the meadowlands. Now that is all they care about. EPO, EPO, EPO...
Where were they in 1998?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Where were they in 1998?

Testing for sublimaze.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I hear you.. I was making the point that it seemed ridiculous that NJ officials thought there was a chance he would be caught using EPO. As I said, if he's taking an edge, he's doing it 'conventionally'...

Respectfully at some point you will need to clarify your position in racing, because sometimes you seem like a journalist and some of the time you are the leader of the "Good" good ole boys club.

If by conventional you are suggesting pure and simple great horsemanship then I suggest you thought the same about Rick Violette's barn when his horses were in super form.. Both stables are full of good owners with great resources and both stables have two outstanding trainers at the helm. Both stable's above normal success were or are of from anything conventional. In due time the Levine machine will calm down, as what works today doesn't work as well tomorrow. Unfortunately, its an arms race just with undectectable elixirs and there isn't the money or comprehensive agencys to maintain the peace or worse balance of power.

[Kasept]

You need me to clarify 'taking an edge conventionally'? The term is meant to suggest that Levine may well be doing the kinds of things you suggested in terms of taking liberties within the confines of the rules.

As to what I try to do 'in racing', my first instincts are journalistic having been brought through my training early on as a newspaperman. But I will say that the radio show is designed to be entertainment first and foremost. As such, I try to deliver the news and hard factual elements of the game without turning it into an inquisition.

The show is designed to celebrate and promote the game as opposed to work to expose its' most seemly elements and act as an agent provocateur for change. I trust the ability of a good portion of the game's leadership charged with making the necessary adjustments in the industry. I encourage it as best I can, and don't believe I am in a position to act as the arbitor of who is good/bad or right/wrong in every circumstance. I try to bring the facts forward by providing access to as many people in the game as I can reach and let the fan/listener decide for themselves.

Personally, it's not necessarily relevant whether I care for Rick Dutrow, Steve Asmussen, Jess Jackson, etc., or not... But fans want to hear from them when appropriate, and I feel I have an obligation to be in position to bring them to the listeners. I can't do it if they refuse to come on the show.

Andy Serling and I had this discussion last year. If the show tends to make me come off more as Mike Douglas than Mike Wallace, I can live with that...