Big Brown has Quarter Crack

[miraja2]

I think it depends on what criteria you are looking at when you evaluate whether or not some sire is, or is not, a disappointment.

As a sire of racehorses Secretariat wasn't great, but he was pretty good.
As a sire of sires, he was useless.
As a broodmare sire, he was an absolutely huge success.

People could reasonably make the argument that Secretariat was a great sire by pointing to all of the Storm Cat and AP Indy blood in the breed today. Somebody else could also reasonably argue that no sire that completely failed in establishing a sire line should be called a great sire.
In some respects, both of those people would be right.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It would have been almost impossible for Big Red to not have been an excellent broodmare sire when you consider the amazing quality and depth of the mares he was bred to.

Even if they weren't hits on the track - they were royally bred on the bottom and in such large numbers - many had to pop with good runners when bred back to top stallions.

I believe the best way to judge a stallion is to compare their success in relation to the quality of the mares they are being bred to each year.

Sires who consistantly move their mares up will eventually make it to the top as stallions. Stallions that move up mares like Distorted Humor, Storm Cat, A. P. Indy, Indian Charlie, Street Cry, Put It Back, Mr. Greeley etc have risen up - while stallions like Point Given and Fusaichi Pegasus .. who have thrown a few very good horses but underperform their book - they will start to fall down the ladder.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It would have been almost impossible for Big Red to not have been an excellent broodmare sire when you consider the amazing quality and depth of the mares he was bred to.

Clearly you are correct in saying that the fact that he saw so many quality mares has a lot to do with his success as a broodmare sire. But I think you might be selling him a bit short in terms of just how good of a broodmare sire he actually turned out to be.

It isn't just that he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track. The fact that arguably the two most dominant American sires of the last decade were BOTH out of Secretariat mares is fairly remarkable.
I don't care how good the mares are that a sire sees, THAT sort of production couldn't really be expected.

I guess I'm trying to say that he certainly saw enough quality mares that it was very likely that he would be a very good broodmare sire.
But I think he turned out to be a great one.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Clearly you are correct in saying that the fact that he saw so many quality mares has a lot to do with his success as a broodmare sire. But I think you might be selling him a bit short in terms of just how good of a broodmare sire he actually turned out to be.

It isn't just that he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track. The fact that arguably the two most dominant American sires of the last decade were BOTH out of Secretariat mares is fairly remarkable.
I don't care how good the mares are that a sire sees, THAT sort of production couldn't really be expected.

I guess I'm trying to say that he certainly saw enough quality mares that it was very likely that he would be a very good broodmare sire.
But I think he turned out to be a great one.

I think they made a big mistake with the mares that they sent to Big Red in the first 5 years. He got the best mares that could go a classic distance of ground and that mixed with his ablity to run forever produced offspring that could go 1 1/2 miles and longer. Thats where they failed with Big Red. He needed to cover mares that would throw some speed to his distance. Just my view.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

I think they made a big mistake with the mares that they sent to Big Red in the first 5 years. He got the best mares that could go a classic distance of ground and that mixed with his ablity to run forever produced offspring that could go 1 1/2 miles and longer. Thats where they failed with Big Red. He needed to cover mares that would throw some speed to his distance. Just my view.

He got plenty of those.

He was given every chance to be the greatest stallion ever - trust me, they didn't fail him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by miraja2

he sired terrific broodmares like Fantastic Ways, Six Crowns, Terlingua, Weekend Surprise (etc.) that then produced really good horses on the track.

I hear ya.

However, all four of those broodmares you mentioned were out of dams who were stakes winners on the track and each mother of those broodmares above had produced another stakes winner when mated with a different stallion than Big Red.

I've never been a huge believer in the concept of broodmare sires - or sire of sires - or stuff like that.