Is Haskin joking?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His haskell loss showed you he was clearly what? The fact remains that he lost 3 of 4 races against 3 yo's in grade 1 races. Did you consider Sunday Silence head and shoulders better than Easy Goer? Probably not and he beat him 3 out of 4. He was a head bob away from being 0 for 4 in the big 3 year old races. The rest of the year counts too. He was clearly the best 3 year old in November and December.

he came back a different horse more mature, whatever, in the JCGC, and consistently performed at that higher level four consecutive times now.
to me there is no doubt who the best horse to come out of 07 was. Curlin is a standout. It was unclear during the TC season, but it didn't end up that way.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It was unclear during the TC season, but it didn't end up that way.

Without being a smart ass this time - I don't think it was unclear at all.

Hard Spun wasn't that much horse when he didn't make the lead - and when he didn't make the lead and raced wide over a live rail - he wasn't good enough to even hit the board in the Southwest Stakes.

Street Sense - I know I supposedly have a huge bias against him and all - but all of his good races came with the same illogically good trip.

Rags To Riches had a great route pedigree and a slow paced 12 furlong race was what she was tailor made for.

Curlin didn't always win when things didn't go his way - but he didn't need things to go his way to run big.

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Without being a smart ass this time - I don't think it was unclear at all.

Hard Spun wasn't that much horse when he didn't make the lead - and when he didn't make the lead and raced wide over a live rail - he wasn't good enough to even hit the board in the Southwest Stakes.

Street Sense - I know I supposedly have a huge bias against him and all - but all of his good races came with the same illogically good trip.

Rags To Riches had a great route pedigree and a slow paced 12 furlong race was what she was tailor made for.

Curlin didn't always win when things didn't go his way - but he didn't need things to go his way to run big.

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

look, I feel Curlin is head and shoulders the best of the group.
its just for me I only became totally sure of that later in the year. If you were sure about it early on, good for you because you were right.

i agree with your assessment on him 100%, he was the only one that could win a race that wasn't handed to him.

I think you and I were among the very few on here last year that could see through the Street Sense mystique. why he went off as the favorite in the classic is a mystery to me, off of his loss to Hard Spun and his titanic struggle with Grasshopper.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

look, I feel Curlin is head and shoulders the best of the group.
its just for me I only became totally sure of that later in the year. If you were sure about it early on, good for you because you were right.

i agree with your assessment on him 100%, he was the only one that could win a race that wasn't handed to him.

I think you and I were among the very few on here last year that could see through the Street Sense mystique. why he went off as the favorite in the classic is a mystery to me, off of his loss to Hard Spun and his titanic struggle with Grasshopper.

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

AGS obviously got out-tripped in the Tampa Derby - Grasshopper was lightly raced and was to short on foundation to be expected to hold off a Derby winner at 10f's - even that Derby winner.

Rags didn't have a great trip in the Belmont - but a slow paced 12 furlong dirt race is what she best projected for in my opinion.

[Danzig]

i just think that it was a pretty even crop-they each won a good race, but no one really showed dominance. running at four does not automatically make a horse 'better' than his peers who have retired-as if the horse has control over that.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't recall any given saturday handing the tampa bay derby to street sense, or grasshopper later in the summer for that matter. rags didn't get a gift in the belmont either.

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i was replying to a comment that said no one but curlin won without a race being handed to them, i disagree with that contention. the season lasts all years, regardless of how each horse started or finished it, you have to consider the entire season.
also, keep in mind that curlin was not the only one to defeat older, hard spun and any given saturday did as well. i think it was a level crop, with curlin only getting a nod now because he is still racing. of course you can only speculate on how good the others would be-but i don't think you can knock them back a few pegs on how they did last year, due to the fact they aren't racing this year.
the breeders cup had the same hard spun, street sense, etc that curlin faced all year. the older horses were laughable last year.
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

First of all I think the 3 yr old crop of 2007 was one of the deepest crops we have seen in awhile, but I am curious do you really believe that Hard Spun's Gr.2 Kentucky Cup Stks win or Any Given Saturday's Gr. 2 Brooklyn Hdcp against older compares to Curlin's Gr.1 wins in the Gr.1 Jockey Gold Cup and Breeders Cup Classic?

Second point I would like to address, is yes Curlin is still racing. But it is not without risk of tarnishing his reputation. Horses that prematurely retire avoid the risk of exposure. We won't know this about the others, but Street Sense rode a 2 horse losing streak into retirement, Rags to Riches lost in the Gazelle before retiring. Though it can be argued that these horses had already peaked or caught favorable scenarios or not. One thing cannot be argued is Curlin continued to ascend in his performances. Aren't traits in consistency and durabilty in a racehorse a sign of superiority?

Finally we can nitpick over individual races at nauseum, however certain races carry more weight and whether we like it or not, The Breeders Cup Classic is the defining moment when comparing these horses. All of the horses had long campaigns, I'm sure if Street Sense had won the race we would not be arguing who was the best 3 yr old of 2007? Wouldn't we? But the fact is none of the others were in the same league of Curlin that day, objectively to ignore that, I believe one is not truly examining all the factors at work here nor are they are accurately weighing them.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i
i think curlin is a good horse who is being elevated by many due to having the best of circumstances more so than the best of talent.

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

If they were all still racing today, Curlin would go off at even money against any of last years group. nostalgically looking back at what happened in the Tampa Bay Derby, Kentucky Derby or Belmont does not do justice to what Curlin evolved into.
but yes kudos to multiple gr1 winner Street Sense for gallantly holding off the first level allowance winner Grasshopper at Saratoga. It was his last victory. Street Sense never beat older horses, but Curlin has done so 4 straight times including the breeders cup and DWC.

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

I realize some people have a hard time rationally discussing Curlin because of an extreme distaste for his trainer and/or owners. I have no interest in the drug/breeding/connections aspect of all this. It's irrelavant to my main point which is that Curlin was no doubt the best performer of the 2007 3yo's.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Nafzger never used an illegal edge in his life. His horses were never drugged. However, Assmussen's all are. Thus, I think Street Sense is a significantly better horse and will be a top notch sire. Curlin will be a bust.

Name me one Assmussen runner that went on to be a top notch sire. I can think of at least one Nafzger runner that went on to great things as a sire, Unbridled.

posse is doing pretty well. it is a stretch to say that horses given "illegal" drugs wont be sucessful as sires because racetrack performance doesnt necessarily translate to success at stud. Horses like Formal Gold and Skip Away would be Gods on the track nowdays but havent been bigtime sires and i'm pretty sure it isnt because they were drugged.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I am certainly no Assmussen fan, but this post is silly, for many reasons. All of Assmussen's horses are drugged? Come on. I was about as big a Street Sense fan around here, but it's obvious now, that Curlin is a better horse. Question, did Helen Pitts drug Curlin also, because he ran a pretty good race for her?

Not to mention Curlin ran two pretty nice races over in Dubai.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I am certainly no Assmussen fan, but this post is silly, for many reasons. All of Assmussen's horses are drugged? Come on. I was about as big a Street Sense fan around here, but it's obvious now, that Curlin is a better horse. Question, did Helen Pitts drug Curlin also, because he ran a pretty good race for her?

Sorry---when you are caught cheating as many times as Assmussen has been, I choose not to believe a SINGLE accomplishment on its merit.

Not saying Curlin would be a $5k claimer in another barn but I can't dignify his efforts when he is managed by a cheater like Steve A.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How many 3yo champions go through a season undefeated?

No one said he wasnt the best horse in the end but he was far from undefeated, especially against the three year olds. He lost the derby, he lost the belmont, he won the Preakness by a nose, he lost the haskell. That is NOT heads and shoulders above anybody. Did he wind up as the best horse? Yes. But to say he was heads and shoulders above the other three year olds is hindsight. He ran in six 3 yo stakes i believe and lost half of them. The win over Lawyer Ron was nice but Lawyer Ron was beaten badly by the other three year olds next out so he is a poor measuring stick. He was very good in the BC and i guess these days thats all that counts. He would be heads and shoulders against this group this year.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No one said he wasnt the best horse in the end but he was far from undefeated, especially against the three year olds. He lost the derby, he lost the belmont, he won the Preakness by a nose, he lost the haskell. That is NOT heads and shoulders above anybody.

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You act like he wasn't clearly the best horse coming into the Derby - and you act like you didn't even bother to watch any of those four races you speak of - just happened to notice the final results.

He had an impossible trip in the Derby, he was MUCH better than his margin of victory in the Preakness, he was caught inside behind a slow pace in the Belmont and still answered the bell, and he had an impossible task in the Haskell racing wide off of a layoff over a track where the rail was extremely live.

If you want to pretend like that series of four races proved that he wasn't conclusively better than the rest of the 3yo males - go on.

You are absolutely correct in modern day thinking. It is not what they did, it is what might have happened if everything worked out. You have a huge career in the breeding business (horses)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are absolutely correct in modern day thinking. It is not what they did, it is what might have happened if everything worked out. You have a huge career in the breeding business (horses)

It is what they did.

And I have no plans of getting into the breeding business anytime soon - horses or humans.

Not until Emily dumps the Silent Bob after the Nutra-Sytem diet looking guy and comes back to me.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It is what they did.

And I have no plans of getting into the breeding business anytime soon - horses or humans.

Not until Emily dumps the Silent Bob after the Nutra-Sytem diet looking guy and comes back to me.

Ok well he ran in 4 grade 1 3 year old races and lost 3 of them. If SS or HS had won the BC, there would be no way anyone could say that Curlin was head and shoulders above the other 3 year olds. So basically one big win on a sloppy track is the determining factor. That is hardly dominant