Grass Ranks Thinning Because of Synthetics

[Cannon Shell]

Not totally disagreeing with anything stated before but the Santa Anita Handicap has been in decline since the advent of the Dubai Classic.

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

I find it hard to believe that top class turf races, in the East especially, are effected more by synthetic tracks than by poor scheduling by tracks who ignore other tracks stakes schedules and a few high profile trainers that control a great many of the better turf runners wishes to keep them apart.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

He beat a mighty field in the Hawthorne Gold Cup.

I don't totally disagree with you but the field he beat at Del Mar is better than him on the dirt. And, most that are didn't show up at all.

Frankly, there is no greater example of how ridiculous that surface is than Big Booster. He was running for a quarter on the dirt. Granted, it was John Kimmel, but still.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He beat a mighty field in the Hawthorne Gold Cup.

I don't totally disagree with you but the field he beat at Del Mar is better than him on the dirt. And, most that are didn't show up at all.

Frankly, there is no greater example of how ridiculous that surface is than Big Booster. He was running for a quarter on the dirt. Granted, it was John Kimmel, but still.

All of you said is probably true but the thread was supposedly about how turf races were suffering because of synthetic tracks and that is hardly the case. The race that Frankels horse is skipping Sat is a 10 horse field where Frankel already has 2 other races not to mention it is far from an important race. Perhaps Frankel would have not pointed his horse to the Big Cap on Dirt but he sure may have. I guess i am getting old but I remember lots of "turf" horses trying the big Cap. Of course they would have used this as a prep too. California is far different than everywhere else in regards to scheduling of races due to the distance from the other major races. But I would maintain that the schedule in the summer and fall in the east and midwest where races of all sorts overlap is a bigger detriment to thin stakes races than synthetic surfaces.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

All of you said is probably true but the thread was supposedly about how turf races were suffering because of synthetic tracks and that is hardly the case. The race that Frankels horse is skipping Sat is a 10 horse field where Frankel already has 2 other races not to mention it is far from an important race. Perhaps Frankel would have not pointed his horse to the Big Cap on Dirt but he sure may have. I guess i am getting old but I remember lots of "turf" horses trying the big Cap. Of course they would have used this as a prep too. California is far different than everywhere else in regards to scheduling of races due to the distance from the other major races. But I would maintain that the schedule in the summer and fall in the east and midwest where races of all sorts overlap is a bigger detriment to thin stakes races than synthetic surfaces.

You're right about that. No turf races are really suffering.....unless of course someone is upset that Mott's horse won't be making any overnight races go at Churchill this summer because he's at Arlington. And, as far as Del Mar, their turf stakes are always five or six horse fields anyway.

Plenty of turf horses have tried the SA Handicap. I think Shug said some think that dirt track is kind to turf horses.....though perhaps that was his justification for running Good Reward.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He beat a mighty field in the Hawthorne Gold Cup.

I don't totally disagree with you but the field he beat at Del Mar is better than him on the dirt. And, most that are didn't show up at all.

Frankly, there is no greater example of how ridiculous that surface is than Big Booster. He was running for a quarter on the dirt. Granted, it was John Kimmel, but still.

I don't save charts for the Chicago circuit and I purchased the 2/9 Form at a newsstand and is probably at a recycling center somewhere in the USA now. Who did he beat in the Hawthorne Gold Cup?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by pick4

I don't save charts for the Chicago circuit and I purchased the 2/9 Form at a newsstand and is probably at a recycling center somewhere in the USA now. Who did he beat in the Hawthorne Gold Cup?

The mighty Jonesboro and mighty AP Arrow.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The mighty Jonesboro and mighty AP Arrow.

That nag A P Arrow won the Grade 2 Clark last fall.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by pick4

That nag A P Arrow won the Grade 2 Clark last fall.

Yes, it is an especially tough race now with no one from the BC Classic or BC Dirt Mile running in it. When the race of your life is to beat a well past his prime Brass Hat by 3/4 of a length I don't think the Hall of Fame is going to be calling anytime soon.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pick4

That nag A P Arrow won the Grade 2 Clark last fall.

Which kind of provides evidence that there were no top older horses last year on just about any surface

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pick4

I don't save charts for the Chicago circuit and I purchased the 2/9 Form at a newsstand and is probably at a recycling center somewhere in the USA now. Who did he beat in the Hawthorne Gold Cup?

Probably nobody. But it was a graded dirt win and the field he beat at Del Mar was still a field full of slow horses and one good horses in decline. The time was a joke but i still maintain that result is far from shocking on either surface. He won the worst running of the race ever but it was going to be the worst running regardless of surface.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pick4

I don't save charts for the Chicago circuit and I purchased the 2/9 Form at a newsstand and is probably at a recycling center somewhere in the USA now. Who did he beat in the Hawthorne Gold Cup?

AP Arrow, who never lifted a hoof, and not much else.

Let me rephrase that.....AP Arrow was in the field and he beat nobody.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not totally disagreeing with anything stated before but the Santa Anita Handicap has been in decline since the advent of the Dubai Classic.

Tell me again what top horses Student Council defeated at Del Mar? That was a terrible group for a race of that stature regardless of surface. Didn't he follow it up with another graded win on dirt?

I find it hard to believe that top class turf races, in the East especially, are effected more by synthetic tracks than by poor scheduling by tracks who ignore other tracks stakes schedules and a few high profile trainers that control a great many of the better turf runners wishes to keep them apart.

He beat an over the top Lava Man and held off the late charge of Awesome Gem who finished 3rd in the BC Classic.Student Council won the G2 Hawthorne Gold Cup in 9/07. Awesome Gem and Student Council both ran in the San Antonio at SA on 2/9/08 and AG was 3rd while SC was 5th.The Pacific Classic was run in 2:07 1/5 which is absurd for a Grade 1 race run on a sunny day and dry track. The Blue Grass of 07 was another ridiculously slow final time. Both races were run on Polytrack.

Didn't these "synthetic surfaces" originate in England?