Words from John Murtha

Originally Posted by pgardn

I guess American lives are more important than Iraqi lives.

Folks like it or not, we made a decision, it is a mess. If we leave, huge numbers of innocent folks will die. We are being asked by leaders on both sides to stay because they know what will happen if we leave. You see cameras of people shouting at us to leave, but the people who have access to information know what will happen if we leave.

It has turned into Sunni v. Shiite. This is where the vast majority of deaths are occurring now. And BTW, we are still in Afghanistan also. Should we leave?

Our troops are doing what I consider the ultimate in altruism. We are preventing people from being slaughtered whole sale. And these are people that do not even realize it. The troops will never get the credit they deserve. They are saving innocent people that quite possibly hate them.

It has turned Sunni v Shiite and it is not the business of America. Let them have their Civil War and figure out who they are as a nation. America lost 600,000 men (2% of the population at the time- equivalent to 6 million today) to figure out what it was. You can't tell countries what they will be, they have to figure it out themselves.

As for Afghanistan, we should stay there, in fact we should have never gone to Iraq and we should have put all our resources into Afghanistan. It would be much more of a success had we. The problem is the idiot neocons and their friends couldn't make the money off that war. FACE IT, the Iraq war was planned long before 9-11, some feel it was planned in the mid 90's after the first Iraq war, back when we had a competent Bush as President, not his son.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It has turned Sunni v Shiite and it is not the business of America. Let them have their Civil War and figure out who they are as a nation. America lost 600,000 men (2% of the population at the time- equivalent to 6 million today) to figure out what it was. You can't tell countries what they will be, they have to figure it out themselves.

As for Afghanistan, we should stay there, in fact we should have never gone to Iraq and we should have put all our resources into Afghanistan. It would be much more of a success had we. The problem is the idiot neocons and their friends couldn't make the money off that war. FACE IT, the Iraq war was planned long before 9-11, some feel it was planned in the mid 90's after the first Iraq war, back when we had a competent Bush as President, not his son.

I agree with you about Afghanistan and that Iraq was planned long before 9-11; 9-11 just provided a convenient excuse (and a way to dupe most of America into believe Hussein has anything to do with it. I find it funny how so many Americans will say they don't trust politicians, and then blindly accept everything those politicians tell them).

But I have to respectfully disagree on McCain-- I can't get behind anyone who is willing to accept the absolute gutting of the torture legislation that he pushed to pass. Torture is not acceptable under any circumstances and to me a man who is willing to play the game until he's in office on torture is a man who will continue to play the game once he's in office. I don't buy the whole "different man once in office" thing. TR was considered a lunatic by his own party BEFORE he was President. He didn't play along; they made him VP to shut him up. Plus, McCain is a social conservative, regardless of what he tries to imply.

Did you see the TIME cover story on Teddy Roosevelt? Very entertaining reading.

I don't think Giuliani will make it past the primaries, unless he does an about-face on his social liberalism (and I wouldn't be surprised to see him do just that). AND-- I think if the Dems would grow some cojones and bring out all the assorted dirt on Giuliani prior to 9-11, he might well have trouble in the general election. Buddy-buddy with Kerik, marched in parades with his mistress, announced his marital separation to the press BEFORE he'd mentioned it to his wife, his own son won't speak to him, putting his buddies into six-figure positions overseeing the dispensation of the 9-11 money (later forced to back down on that)-- there's plenty of ethical problems with Mr. G, but I don't think the Dems have the backbone to play as dirty as the Republicans have played the past few elections (and very successfully, I must add). They say the only reason Schumer beat D'amato in '98 is he was willing to climb down in the gutter with D'amato.

For the record, I couldn't care less about politicians dalliances, but dude, say something to your wife BEFORE you go to the media... tacky! And lots of Americans do seem more interested in politicians sex lives than in their policy decisions, don't they?

(Though it was very satisfying to see Livingstone brought down by Larry Flynt. I do enjoy seeing hypocrites brought down.)

[Downthestretch55]

John Kenneth Galbraith left his readers with a "sadly relevant fact: "Civilization has made great strides ... But it has also given a privileged position to the development of weapons and ... the reality of war. Mass slaughter has become the ultimate civilized achievement. ... War remains the decisive human failure."

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

John Kenneth Galbraith left his readers with a "sadly relevant fact: "Civilization has made great strides ... But it has also given a privileged position to the development of weapons and ... the reality of war. Mass slaughter has become the ultimate civilized achievement. ... War remains the decisive human failure."

Some wars are necessary though, however most aren't.

[Downthestretch55]

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

You don't live in the real world. Just look at the world today, people fight in the name of God and other ridiculous things, just like they always have. What do you do if North Korea attacks another country, talk to them? What if you live under a dictator in Africa, are you going to talk to him or try to get rid of him? There are bad people out there, unfortunately some of the people that claim to represent the good are often part of the problem.

Afghanistan is Iraq on a much smaller scale. It is just as chaotic. Afghanistan's EARLY success led to the belief the same could be done in Iraq. Afghanistan will go long run just like Iraq, right or wrong.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You don't live in the real world. Just look at the world today, people fight in the name of God and other ridiculous things, just like they always have. What do you do if North Korea attacks another country, talk to them? What if you live under a dictator in Africa, are you going to talk to him or try to get rid of him? There are bad people out there, unfortunately some of the people that claim to represent the good are often part of the problem.

I guess I really don't live in the "real world".
Last time I looked, North Korea hasn't attacked any country since 1948-9.
Africa? We're talking about recently independent countries after many years of European colonialization. Don't know of an African country attacking any first world ones.
Are we talking about Israel justifying the carnage in retaliation for two kidnapped soldiers?
Explain "good" and "bad". Sounds like black and white, and, as we both know there are only shades of grey.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

I think that was Pete Seeger, actually. I grew up listening to the Kingston Trio's cover of it (my dad loves the Kingston Trio).

Seeger? Seger? Seager? How spell?

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Now that I think about it, you're right...Pete Seeger.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boldruler

It has turned Sunni v Shiite and it is not the business of America. Let them have their Civil War and figure out who they are as a nation. America lost 600,000 men (2% of the population at the time- equivalent to 6 million today) to figure out what it was. You can't tell countries what they will be, they have to figure it out themselves.

As for Afghanistan, we should stay there, in fact we should have never gone to Iraq and we should have put all our resources into Afghanistan. It would be much more of a success had we. The problem is the idiot neocons and their friends couldn't make the money off that war. FACE IT, the Iraq war was planned long before 9-11, some feel it was planned in the mid 90's after the first Iraq war, back when we had a competent Bush as President, not his son.

it's 'turned' sunni vs shiite?? yeah, it sure has, for over a thousand years it's been sunni vs shiite. ever since the days of mohammed when islam was born. that's how old those two sects are.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

it's 'turned' sunni vs shiite?? yeah, it sure has, for over a thousand years it's been sunni vs shiite. ever since the days of mohammed when islam was born. that's how old those two sects are.

It hasn't been sunni v shiite in Iraq for a few years. Remarkably they put it on hold and concentrated on America. Iran has got involved though once again and now they are back to their sunni shiite fighting. Right now if you try to book a hotel in southern Iraq you better speak Farsi. That is all you need to know.

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Well worth the time it takes to read....

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0729-20.htm

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

GR,
Well worth the time it takes to read....

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0729-20.htm

Interesting and depressing.

Here's some interesting articles that caught my attention today in between races at Saratoga (yay, OTB channel!)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us...rtner=homepage

http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/07...urdain_beirut/

And on the lighter side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHsOr...eanor%20holmes

Funniest thing I've seen in ages.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Interesting and depressing.

Here's some interesting articles that caught my attention today in between races at Saratoga (yay, OTB channel!)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us...rtner=homepage

http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/07...urdain_beirut/

And on the lighter side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHsOr...eanor%20holmes

Funniest thing I've seen in ages.

GR,
The first article is indeed interesting. Took a while to read but worth it.
Hey, don't these conserves know that Jesus had no "party affiliation"? Duh!
He turned the "religious establishment" on its head too.
Later I'll read the other articles...racing sometimes gets in the way.
Thanks for the reads.
DTS

[Danzig]

500 gallons of water for a pound of meat? no way that's right. five HUNDRED?

but i do my part on the local meat source. venison, it does a body good.