The Pats

[docicu3]

Because every Boston fan is "now and ever will be" a cynic waiting for the injury or injuries that would wound this machine to mere mortal production.

You would think the city and all its current sports riches would silence the cynic and the pessimist but if Brady and Moss go down this weekend a different tune will be heard from Foxboro......4 games is alot of football to play before they're crowned...let's not get carried away quite yet!!

[SentToStud]

Moss is maybe the 4th best player on the Pats offense.

He had 50, 70 and 18 yards in receptions in his last three playoff games.

He's The Great Beneficiary. Not The Great Benefactor.

[SniperSB23]

As long as Bob Sanders is still in the playoffs the Patriots are still beatable.

[NoChanceToDance]

This is the first year that I've followed NFL with any great interest, but does anyone else feel that the Pats have looked increasingly tired over recent games?

They were a MUCH better side during the first half of the season, but recently I think they could have struggled against one of the 'big' teams. The Chargers seem to be going really well at the moment, could they hve peaked just at the right time?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

This is the first year that I've followed NFL with any great interest, but does anyone else feel that the Pats have looked increasingly tired over recent games?

They were a MUCH better side during the first half of the season, but recently I think they could have struggled against one of the 'big' teams. The Chargers seem to be going really well at the moment, could they hve peaked just at the right time?

The only game they can be beat is the conference championship game. Bellichick is unbeatable when he has two weeks to prepare for an opponent which he will have in the divisional round and in the Super Bowl.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

As long as Bob Sanders is still in the playoffs the Patriots are still beatable.

Exactly....he's deadly

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff

Exactly....he's deadly

His real first name is Demond - and if you ever wonder how only a than down in the dumps Iowa Hawkeye program was the only D1 school to offer him a scholarship....part of it was because he spent his highschool football days covering hopeless bums like me. Kind of easy to look good against that kind of opposition eh?

The other part of it was because Iowa head coach Kirk Ferentz was once coached by Sanders' high school asst coach (the legendary Notre Dame and Pitt O-line coach Joe Moore)

Interestingly enough, besides Sanders, a pair of other future All-Big 10 players from that same Pennsylvania high school ended up playing for Ferentz at Iowa as well.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Moss is maybe the 4th best player on the Pats offense.

He had 50, 70 and 18 yards in receptions in his last three playoff games.

He's The Great Beneficiary. Not The Great Benefactor.

Moss, not Brady, should be the MVP of the league this season. All the attention he draws just opens things up for Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney and the running game. Yeah Brady is having a great season but what has been the big change between this year and last? Number 18.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by JJP

Moss, not Brady, should be the MVP of the league this season. All the attention he draws just opens things up for Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney and the running game. Yeah Brady is having a great season but what has been the big change between this year and last? Number 18.

If Moss misses game, Pats have 80% to win
If Brady misses game, Pats have 50% to win

Who is more valuble?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Any NFL team that holds a pair of untested backup QB's is about going to have their starting qb be their teams most valuable player if they are halfway decent. The Pats #2 QB, he was a backup his ENTIRE college career! I believe his last start came in high school.

You could plug in a half dozen NFL QB's into that offense and they will put up Brady's numbers. You can't plug in a another NFL reciever to replace Moss, and expect not just Brady, but any NFL qb to put up those numbers.

While both have great numbers in the postseason, Brady has won Super Bowls without Moss - and Moss hasn't won them without Brady - However, Moss has been on MANY better offenses than Brady has.

Look, people forget how downright pathetic some of those Minnesota Vikings defenses were in the Moss era in Minnesota. No team is winning a championship with truly the leauges worst defense year in and year out.

In Minny they paid Moss A lot of money, they paid his Moss Made fraud QB Culpepper A LOT of money, and they were almost always the team most under the cap and spending the least money. They had a defense only the Tampa Bay Devil Rays could envy.

Brady is very under-paid, NE spends money, and spends it smart - and they always have had a very tough defense.

Once the Pats get a lead, Moss is just going through the motions effort wise right now - and he has been for much of the season.

He's had hamstring injuries four years in a row - though, his hammy injury this year came before the season and not during it.

I believe he's a different player off of rest - look at week 1 against the Jets when he played sparingly and put up monster numbers. Look at his 4 first half TD receptions against Buffalo off of the bye week.

I know a lot of the talking heads are saying he might be much less effective in the snow, but he had that 3 TD performance in the snow when he won the MAC Championship at Marshall...when everyone said the slow field would neutralize him.

A full sixty minutes of a hungry and healthy Randy Moss...even a little older and slower now....if one of those backups can even remotely play I think this team would win a Super Bowl without Brady....just as they would still be the favorite to do without Moss.

[SentToStud]

I remember Moss's last playoff game agaisnt Philly (the game after he mooned the GB crowd) when Culpepper threw for a ton and Moss caught three for 50 yards with a bunch of drops.

Welker is far more valuable than Moss.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I remember Moss's last playoff game agaisnt Philly (the game after he mooned the GB crowd)

Yes - he was playing with a bad hammy - Philly had three of their four starters in the secondary selected to the Pro Bowl that year - and Johnson (who has always called great games against Moss) had his gameplan focused around Moss.

That is truly an all-time dumb example. The week before, Moss was hobbling around the field the entire game- and still caught two big TD passes in a road playoff win over Green Bay at Lambeau.

As for Welker being more valuable - prior to this year - he had a grand total of ONE career NFL touchdown catch...and the Dolphins didn't let him go because it would have taken a lot of money to sign him ... and certainly not because he was a precieved cancer.

Welker has been "covered" by #3 corners, or safeties, or linebackers for much of the year. He's doing a great job of exploiting those mismatches - but he's no superstar.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Welker is far more valuable than Moss.

At what? Reading and writing?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You could plug in a half dozen NFL QB's into that offense and they will put up Brady's numbers. You can't plug in a another NFL reciever to replace Moss, and expect not just Brady, but any NFL qb to put up those numbers.

There is only one other QB who would put up those numbers in Brady's place. I hear all the things about having lots of time and while that is true the guy has made like 6 bad throws all year. He has been unbelievable.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There is only one other QB who would put up those numbers in Brady's place.

I think you're wrong about that.

Here are the fraud that is known as Duante Culpepper's stats from Randy's last season in Minnesota compared to Brady's this year:

Duante: 379-for-548 (69.2% completions) 4,717 yards 39TD's 11 INT's
Brady: 366-for-536 (68.3% completions) 4,450 yards 48TD's 8 INT's

Moss caught 17 TD's with Duante that year - despite being slowed down by a hammy injury near the end of the season. He caught 21 TD's with Brady so far this year.

The Vikings defense that year would have to rate as the all-time worst defensive unit to ever be on a team that won a playoff game.

Culpepper threw just six TD's against 12 INT's and 3 lost fumbles (15 combined turnovers) in his first six games the next season - before suffering a season ending injury. It was almost as if he had to learn to play the qb position over again from scratch! That's how drastic the defenses changed.

Culpepper threw for almost 4K yards and 33 TD's in his rookie season. His true rookie season was when he lossed Moss.

A 35-year-old Randall Cunningham came out of retirement - and off of the bench - to lead the '98 Vikings to a 15-1 season and break the record for most points in a season (a record which NE will break this week) RC's qb rating was 108 - which reasonably compares to the 117.2 of Brady this year.

Jeff George went to the Pro Bowl and won a playoff game with Moss, guys like Gus Ferrotte and Todd Beauman had been named NFC offensive player of the week at the QB position for Minnesota.

I know Randy's stats showed a big decline his two years in Oakland, but people forget that he had 466 recieving yards after his first four games with the Raiders (Kerry Collins at qb) In his 5th game in Oakland, he injured his hammy on a deep ball in the 1st quarter. Left the game, and it was a year and three quarters of no production from him at that point.

He hobbled around the rest of '05 - and cashed in his chips for the '06 season.