Discreet Cat retired

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No tears for the owners...

well, no...certainly not. they kept the wrong one in training for this year.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Discreet Cat's throat issue was never cleared up.

He was last at every stage in a paceless running of the 10 furlong WC. His race in the Vosburgh was probably the biggest eyesore of the decade...beating the gate and putting himself in a dream spot...and even at six furlongs, he readily gave ground in a race run in a Merry-Go-Round fashion. Desperatly winning a 4-way photo for 3rd place.

In his final work before the Breeders Cup, he was kept well off the rail, and worked an effortless five furlongs in 57.46 - a work so highly regarded that his odds dropped markedly for the Dirt Mile in off-shore books.

Anyone with any sense - who saw his Vosburgh knew the work meant nothing...as he was sure to struggle tremendously when put to pressure, as his throat and ability to breath was still an issue.

No one thought more of him than me....and he had NO CHANCE to hit the board in Dirt Mile - even though he was running against a crap field.

Somehow, he did hit the board - 3rd beaten a pole.

[ceejay]

Oh my. Who's gonna try to beat up on those 5-horse fields with the great Discreet Cat retired?

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Biggest eyesore of the decade? Little carried away.

On what information do you know that "his throat and ability to breath was still an issue?"

That is what i was thinking. You would think that the amount of money they have they would have given him a serious check over by only the best vets before making the decision to run him again.

The fact that they got him back to the track, not once but twice suggests that they were 100% happy that his throat problems had cleared up for good.

[sumitas]

My impression... When Darley enters a horse, any horse, they feel they can win that race. Whereas Coolemore is a much higher risk management.

[SniperSB23]

I think he just peaked early. He wasn't given the chance to show it but I fully believe he would have been one of the all time great 2yos. Then he was still very good as a 3yo before tailing off as a 4yo. It happens to horses all the time.

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think he just peaked early. He wasn't given the chance to show it but I fully believe he would have been one of the all time great 2yos. Then he was still very good as a 3yo before tailing off as a 4yo. It happens to horses all the time.

Totally agree Scott. This horse ran some very nice races in 2006. His performance in the Cigar mile was unbelieveable. I thought the sky was the limit for him in 2007. Sad he couldn't stay healthy.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cardus

On what information do you know that "his throat and ability to breath was still an issue?"

Common Sense.

Anyone who saw the Vosburgh and didn't realize he was done is hopeless.

His connections get their best efforts off of layoffs - he's run monster races off of layoffs- he showcases great raw athletic ability to beat the gate and sit the dream tactical trip (a clear 3rd behind two dueling leaders in a race that featured no passing)

And with that trip (BY FAR the best tactical trip he's had in his entire career) he readily faded. He beat 7th place by less than a length.

I saw his workout that had all those clockers raving --- and still picked him to finish 5th in the Dirt Mile.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Common Sense.

Anyone who saw the Vosburgh and didn't realize he was done is hopeless.

His connections get their best efforts off of layoffs - he's run monster races off of layoffs- he showcases great raw athletic ability to beat the gate and sit the dream tactical trip (a clear 3rd behind two dueling leaders in a race that featured no passing)

And with that trip (BY FAR the best tactical trip he's had in his entire career) he readily faded. He beat 7th place by less than a length.

I saw his workout that had all those clockers raving --- and still picked him to finish 5th in the Dirt Mile.

Ever thought he just isn't good enough anymore?

Godolphin will have had him checked over, and he wouldn't have made the track again unless they were 100% happy with him.

Why would they risk losing $20k on a covering fee (which is what has happened) if they weren't 100% sure he was over his throat trouble?

I know they aren't the best at running a business, but that is SOME risk if they had a feeling his throat wasn't up to it.

They were disappointed with his first run back, and i imagine they had him checked over and scoped after that. I imagine he was scoped after working between races.

They were disappointed with his Dirt Mile race. Could it have been the slop?

I'm pretty sure his performances had nothing to do with his throat or ability to breath. If he was finding it hard to breathe, wouldn't Gomez have stated that after the two races? 9 times out of 10 the Jocks will know when the horses is struggling to get air into his/her lungs for whatever reason.

[ceejay]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Why would they risk losing $20k on a covering fee (which is what has happened) if they weren't 100% sure he was over his throat trouble?

More dollars than sense?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Ever thought he just isn't good enough anymore?

Yeah - when he was kept well off the rail - and worked an effortless five furlongs in 57.46.....in a work that literally caused a sharp drop in off-shore future odds I think he proved he's a long in the tooth wash-up who has nothing anymore.


Or when he showed eye-catching athletic ability - beating the gate and putting himself in a dream tactical spot in the Vosburgh - I knew he was a wash-up.

Whenever he was put to any pressure in his two races - he made tremendously hard work of it...going from moving effortlessly to, almost in an instant, struggling.

Does anyone bother to watch races anymore?

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yeah - when he was kept well off the rail - and worked an effortless five furlongs in 57.46.....in a work that literally caused a sharp drop in off-shore future odds I think he proved he's a long in the tooth wash-up who has nothing anymore.


Or when he showed eye-catching athletic ability - beating the gate and putting himself in a dream tactical spot in the Vosburgh - I knew he was a wash-up.

Whenever he was put to any pressure in his two races - he made tremendously hard work of it...going from moving effortlessly to, almost in an instant, struggling.

Does anyone bother to watch races anymore?

I watched them and from a visually perspective, i have to agree with you. It did look like something was amiss.........

BUT......

Like i have said, would they really risk him looking like a shadow of his former self unless they were SURE he was over his illness? The answer is no.

If they did infact let him run TWICE knowing he wasn't over his problem, their business running and training skills are even worse than I thought.

Yes, he worked well, but did they scope him afterwards? It's more than likely they did, and they obviously found nothing.

Nine times out of ten over here, when they have a horse who runs WELL below expectations (which Discreet Cat did twice) the horses are soon at the vets having all over x-rays, scopes etc etc, which as you can imagine costs thousands. With money being no object, don't you think they would have tried EVERYTHING to make sure everything was okay with him? I certainly do.

As i say, from viewing those two races you would automatically think that something was 'wrong' with the animal, but i would also have to say that Godolphin would have checked him out 'with a fine tooth comb' to make sure he was as fit and healthy as they could possibly get him.

Maybe his run in the dirt mile was caused by something that wasn't quite right. I was surprised to see them retire him to stud this year when he will have both Hard Spun and Street Sense competing against him. I can't imagine anyone with the top quality mares would choose him over the other two even if they thought the price was a fair one.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Like i have said, would they really risk him looking like a shadow of his former self unless they were SURE he was over his illness? The answer is no.

I thought the same thing when he was brought back for the Vosburgh.

And he looked like a 1/9 shot at the 3/8ths pole...and all was right in the world.

The final 3/8ths was the horse racing equivalent of this Spears photo.....



The horse might have trained, looked, and felt spectacular....however, he ran like a horse with a serious throat issue/breathing problem.

[LARHAGE]

Tom Amoss on TVG 's the works said that horses with severe throat problems are never the same, they run fantastic works because they are not under any pressure, but race conditions prompt them to exert themselves and they don't breathe the same, kind of like people who have had a bad case of Bronchitis, you can heal to be healthy for normal exercise, but when really exerting yourself you cough and labor due to the earlier damage to your lungs.

[cakes44]

How about horses that suffer from severe overratedness? Did Amoss say anything about the recovery of horses who ail from it?

[ELA]

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about. Some people saw this horse and knew that he was an extremely talented horse, had a great deal of potential, etc. -- and others thought he was nothing more than a common horse who couldn't or wouldn't race, etc.

Then, I think there are people who just dislike a horse when he/she can't live up to their expectations of what a horse could and should do, where and when they should race, etc. And then there are people who have no idea what they are looking at and they tend to collapse handicapping with being a qualified and good jusge of horseflesh.

As far as the problem, I would guess that nobody will ever know the truth, and I am not sure that makes a difference in how good the horse was, might have been, etc.

Anyway, a lot of good points here.

Eric

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cardus

So the answer to the question is that you don't know that his problem was never cleared, or reared its head again in the Vosburgh, but that you are speculating. Had you posted Merasmag's post about a horse's flapping tongue or open mouth, that would be substantive information.

I wouldn't be surprised if Godolphin announces that his breathing problem resurfaced either because it actually did or to mask two sub-par performances, but I'd like to know what hard evidence exists to date.

Would you print that in a newspaper as fact (as opposed to posting it here) without hard evidence and/or Godolphin quotes?

i agree, its mere speculation to assign the cause of his sub par efforts to a severe breathing problem. i don't pretend to know what the issue is but wouldn't a severe breathing problem more severely affect his performance? can a horse with a severe breathing problem still put up 95-100 beyers, or what ever it is that his recent efforts have resulted in? it would seem to me that if the horse couldn't breath right he either wouldn't run a step, or would run for awhile and then fade badly. he actually came on again late in the mile to get third, sorta like he dug in to hold on for third in the Belmont race. everything I have read from them so far is that they are totally perplexed by the performance and have not assigned the cause for his decline to any throat or breathing issue.

i wouldn't rule out that part of the decline is merely that he was just not able to handle real competition or adversity, like the off going. He was not a very proven individual, triumphing over adversity or top competition.

[SentToStud]

I doubt we'll hear anything negative about his physical condition now that he's retired.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

i wouldn't rule out that part of the decline is merely that he was just not able to handle real competition or adversity, like the off going. He was not a very proven individual, triumphing over adversity or top competition.

That is about as likely as Indian Vale being able to open up 10 on Hystericalady in the first quarter mile.

The horse worked an effortless 57.46 while well off the rail in what was probably as impressive a workout as any ever.

He's better now than he was last year - when he was ripping out 114-to-116 Beyers - and running away from fields that included Invasor and Sympatico Bribon - as well Silver Train (who won that years Met Mile and Tom Fool with GIANT figures - and was a champion sprinter the year before)

Well, better now with one obvious exception, he makes tremendously hard work of it after half his race is over.

He had BY FAR the best trip of any horse in the Vosburgh and still couldn't reach triple digits - and his mother LOVED the slop so much she upset the Grade 1 Alabama Stakes going 10 furlongs at Saratoga in stakes record time and winning by a pole at 30/1 odds.

Even with the aid of the best trip of his entire life in the Vosburgh - and the sloppy track (he won the Jerome in a canter with a massive fig in the slop at three) - he couldn't run a triple digit figure.

Remember, I only picked him to finish 5th in the Dirt Mile - and not finish last - because that field was beyond awful. He would have been a great bet against in a typical allowance race. His Vosburgh loss underlined the fact that he still has a serious problem.

It's pretty amazing that anyone can have any doubt about something so obvious.

[freddymo]

Slim Jim you are out of your league ..Let it go