To pedigreeann

[fmc123412]

Simply awesome your answer Pedigree Ann!

Thank a lot!! It will be very helpful!!

Thank you Bold Brooklynite, too!!

[Pedigree Ann]

Tell you what - I'll tell you about pedigrees if you will help me improve my handicapping. I can pick up the rare gem (Siphon City) but can't do it consistently, like some of you.

Could you imagine going to the track with Ann. Shoot, you would have every angle possible. That would be too much fun.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Could you imagine going to the track with Ann. Shoot, you would have every angle possible. That would be too much fun.

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

[sumitas]

True, but in the Belmont the 4 best pedigrees, imo prior to the race, finished in the top 4 spots.

Sometimes a pedigree can translate into a handicapping factor. But I would not place it foremost on the list. I'd say form cycle and documented speed are primary, in general.

[fmc123412]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

I think that pedigrees tell the probability a horse can perform on a certain distance or surface compared to other horses....so imo its extremely useful for both auctions or handicapping on unraced and lightly raced 2yo/3yo colts and fillies starting their careers

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by fmc123412

I think that pedigrees tell the probability a horse can perform on a certain distance or surface compared to other horses....so imo its extremely useful for both auctions or handicapping on unraced and lightly raced 2yo/3yo colts and fillies starting their careers

They are not unimportant, but if I had to decide if I would excel at knowing pedigree or have the ability to watch a horse and see how they move, like what rupert/richi can do, I think I would go with seeing how they move. I would bet I that if I had a copy of the DRF in front of me now, there's plenty of "well-bred" horses that are just plain slow.

[sumitas]

I think Ann nailed it for you. You have to know what you want.

Mares tend to have more residual value than colts in that they can usually be bred after a racing career, or even unraced.

Often colts are gelded and once their career is over they become an expense. Few succeed at stud if they remain whole.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

Oh pedigree plays an important role in handicapping for me in certain races. Comes in handy the most when you are capping 1st time starters. Also comes into play when handicapping off tracks. That is why you will see the off spring of Unbridled get hammered when the dirt track is off. Now, just a normal 1 mile dirt race worth $15k then it doesnt help. But combine the handicapping side and the pedigree side could form a very powerful combination.

[Danzig]

enjoy reading P annes posts. i enjoy pedigree research, but haven't got the time that ann evidently has put into her hobby (for lack of a better word). it isn't an answer in itself for handicapping, but any knowledge is a good thing. knowing a horses pedigree could be helpful--esp for a 2 yo (does his pedigree say precocity?) or a first timer on turf, or on dirt for that matter. not the only tool to have, but still useful.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

enjoy reading P annes posts. i enjoy pedigree research, but haven't got the time that ann evidently has put into her hobby (for lack of a better word). it isn't an answer in itself for handicapping, but any knowledge is a good thing. knowing a horses pedigree could be helpful--esp for a 2 yo (does his pedigree say precocity?) or a first timer on turf, or on dirt for that matter. not the only tool to have, but still useful.

Studying and understanding pedigrees is an enjoyable hobby ... and a worthwhile supplement to conformation analysis when evaluating unraced auction horses.

I grew up reading the brilliant and intricately-complex "Bloodlines" column of Leon Rasmussen in the Daily Racing Form ... and the more erudite and scholarly works of Abram Hewitt in The Blood-Horse.

Lots of fun learning about "three-quarter brothers" and "line breeding" and "tail male descent" ... but not to be taken too seriously.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Oh pedigree plays an important role in handicapping for me in certain races. Comes in handy the most when you are capping 1st time starters. Also comes into play when handicapping off tracks. That is why you will see the off spring of Unbridled get hammered when the dirt track is off. Now, just a normal 1 mile dirt race worth $15k then it doesnt help. But combine the handicapping side and the pedigree side could form a very powerful combination.

What you say is correct ... but it doesn't contradict the validity of what PointG said.

Once a horse establishes his form ... pedigree doesn't mean squat as far as handicapping goes.

Pedigree knowledge is helpful for first-time starters, first-time route, first-time turf, and first-time slop ... but not much more ... when it comes to picking the winner of a race.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

What you say is correct ... but it doesn't contradict the validity of what PointG said.

Once a horse establishes his form ... pedigree doesn't mean squat as far as handicapping goes.

Pedigree knowledge is helpful for first-time starters, first-time route, first-time turf, and first-time slop ... but not much more ... when it comes to picking the winner of a race.

I agree with you in general, but I think pedigree can also be a useful tool for the TC races, especially the Belmont. It is usually my favorite race to handicap each year because of the insanely long (by today's standards) distance of 12f.
I just know a little about pedigree analysis, but I still love to use what I do know to cap the Belmont and it usually helps (except for this year....freakin' Steppenwolfer). I imagine that people like BB and Ann - who know a lot about pedigree analysis - love handicapping the Belmont.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

No offense, all of that pedigree information is great and you obviously have to be intelligent to have that much info, but I don't really see how that would help you, given possible pace scenarios, how fast a horse may actually be or multiple other factors.

Again, no slam on Ann, but what good would it do you to know that so and so is a great great grandson of so and so. I guess you could say that based on breeding they may only go run so far or excell at longer distances, but until they actually do it, you do not really know what they will do...

Absolutely right ... lots of "inbred 4x5" mumbo-jumbo ... but not a scintilla of practical advice.

My advice ... and the advice of others on another thread ... was much, much more useful.

[PSH]

Ann:

My sincere apologies for calling a broodmare a sire instead of a producer....
Definitely my mistake, probably a combination of getting older and trying to multi-task at work...

Hope you did not rip too many hairs out and there is still some left.

Anyway, i stand corrected.

Pedigrees are of course very important as an additional source of information to other factors in handicapping.

As far as racing, we have decided to go the route of racing initially only fillies.
As previoulsy stated, at least at the end of their career or if they do not get to the track we can breed them and sell of the colts and retain the fillies to race and add to our broodmare stable..... Only NY Breds given the strength of their program..

Paul

Originally Posted by fmc123412

Simply awesome your answer Pedigree Ann!

Thank a lot!! It will be very helpful!!

Thank you Bold Brooklynite, too!!

You're most welcome.

(See, Pedigree Ann .. that's how to be "gracious" ... why not give it a try on the "Broodmare" thread?)