Whose was/is the best?

[somerfrost]

Well, folks who know me know that I maintain a list of "100 Greatest" in history of racing...always fun to post it and listen to folks complain when their personal favorite is ranked lower than they think or...god forbid...not at all! I've done the homework and can defend every ranking but it really is quite arbitrary, the further back in history one goes, the more subjective you become...anyway, my top 20 are:
1. Secretariat/ Kincsem (tie)
3. Ribot
4. Citation
5. Man O War
6. Flying Childers
7. Sea Bird
8. Eclipse
9. Native Dancer
10. Count Fleet
11. Spectacular Bid
12. St Simon
13. Kelso
14. War Admiral
15. Seattle Slew
16. Ruffian
17. Affirmed
18. Colin
19. Dr Fager
20. Exterminator

Originally Posted by somerfrost

1. Secretariat/ Kincsem (tie)
3. Ribot
4. Citation
5. Man O War
6. Flying Childers
7. Sea Bird
8. Eclipse
9. Native Dancer
10. Count Fleet
11. Spectacular Bid
12. St Simon
13. Kelso
14. War Admiral
15. Seattle Slew
16. Ruffian
17. Affirmed
18. Colin
19. Dr Fager
20. Exterminator

Hmmm ... how do you manage to compare horses which ran 4-mile heats on turf in 18th-century England ... to horses which ran on turf in central Europe in the 19th century ... to horses which ran on dirt in the United States in the 20th century?

Neat trick ... please tell us all how you did it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hmmm ... how do you manage to compare horses which ran 4-mile heats on turf in 18th-century England ... to horses which ran on turf in central Europe in the 19th century ... to horses which ran on dirt in the United States in the 20th century?

Neat trick ... please tell us all how you did it.

I think I used words such as "arbitrary" and "subjective" in my original post. It is a neat trick and, in the end, it's one guy's opinion. I look at the entire picture, especially to what extent they dominated other horses...add to that how history has treated them and, with more recent ones, what I saw when I watched them run. Kincsem gave huge weight to males, traveled all over Europe and never lost a race...I mean 168 pounds, come now!! Her reputation is the stuff of legends...grazing unconcerned while the field broke to start the race, galloping to victory, traveling all over Europe at a time when you didn't simply hop a jet...how great was she???

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think I used words such as "arbitrary" and "subjective" in my original post. It is a neat trick and, in the end, it's one guy's opinion. I look at the entire picture, especially to what extent they dominated other horses...add to that how history has treated them and, with more recent ones, what I saw when I watched them run. Kincsem gave huge weight to males, traveled all over Europe and never lost a race...I mean 168 pounds, come now!! Her reputation is the stuff of legends...grazing unconcerned while the field broke to start the race, galloping to victory, traveling all over Europe at a time when you didn't simply hop a jet...how great was she???

Equally relevant ... how great was her competition?

A string of victories like that is nothing short of stunning ... but how can we be sure she wasn't the Lost In The Fog/Andy Kaufman of her day ... beating up on chumps?

And Flying Childers? Did he even race against thoroughbreds? The breed hadn't even been formalized then. And what leads you to believe he was better than Eclipse ... when contemporaries of that era thought Eclipse was incomparable?

Your all-encompassing global efforts are ambitious .. to say the least ... but when you become that subjective ... don't you risk losing perspective?

It's difficult enough to restrict it to classic-distance male American horses on dirt for the past 50 years ... without adding a couple of centuries ... another continent ... marathon distances ... heat racing ... both sexes ... and different surfaces.

And speaking of other continents ... where is Phar Lap on your list?

[Gander]

But I did mistakenly leave Ghostzapper off my list. He definitely belongs on there.

Yes indeed. Ghostzapper is a lot more worthy than Point Given.

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by Gander

But I did mistakenly leave Ghostzapper off my list. He definitely belongs on there.

Yes indeed. Ghostzapper is a lot more worthy than Point Given.

Even tho he was a late blommer Ill take Tiznow ahead of the Zapper and PG. When he retired he was beating all commers.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by jpops757

Even tho he was a late blommer Ill take Tiznow ahead of the Zapper and PG. When he retired he was beating all commers.

I honestly believe that Tiznow is the most underrated horse of the past 25 years, I rank him #33 and feel very strongly that he could have been even better than that! Point Given impressed me greatly as well, he receives a #47 ranking despite not facing older; Ghostzapper was an excellent horse but is not ranked.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Equally relevant ... how great was her competition?

A string of victories like that is nothing short of stunning ... but how can we be sure she wasn't the Lost In The Fog/Andy Kaufman of her day ... beating up on chumps?

And Flying Childers? Did he even race against thoroughbreds? The breed hadn't even been formalized then. And what leads you to believe he was better than Eclipse ... when contemporaries of that era thought Eclipse was incomparable?

Your all-encompassing global efforts are ambitious .. to say the least ... but when you become that subjective ... don't you risk losing perspective?

It's difficult enough to restrict it to classic-distance male American horses on dirt for the past 50 years ... without adding a couple of centuries ... another continent ... marathon distances ... heat racing ... both sexes ... and different surfaces.

And speaking of other continents ... where is Phar Lap on your list?

I have Phar Lap at #32, just after Pot8os at #31. FYI, Elusive Pimpernel came in at #99 with Sinndar and Giants Causeway tied at #100.

[Five Star Derek]

What about Zippy Chippy?

[TheSpyder]

As for the best horse of all time what about Red Rum? The horse only won the Grand National (Aintree, England) three times and came in second twice out of five runs. This is a race that is about 4 1/2 miles has, I don't know 26 jumps and usually 45 horses start and maybe 9 finish. It's the only race you can smoke two cigarttees watching it. This horse was really something! Raced 100 times and won 28 times and second 37 times. And that was flat, steple chace and hurdles. And this wasn't 100 years ago but in the 70's.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I have Phar Lap at #32, just after Pot8os at #31. FYI, Elusive Pimpernel came in at #99 with Sinndar and Giants Causeway tied at #100.

OK ... I completely agree with each of those rankings.

So ... where do you have Barcaldine, Flying Fox, Ormonde, Hindoo, Commando, Galopin, Hamburg, St. Frusquin, Springfield, Rock Sand, Bahram, Cyllene, Hyperion, Isinglass, Carbine, and Mayan King?

And shouldn't your #31 horse be spelled "Pot-oooooooo" as it was originally scrawled outside his stall?

And how long do you think it will be before all thoroughbreds trace directly from Whalebone?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

OK ... I completely agree with each of those rankings.

So ... where do you have Barcaldine, Flying Fox, Ormonde, Hindoo, Commando, Galopin, Hamburg, St. Frusquin, Springfield, Rock Sand, Bahram, Cyllene, Hyperion, Isinglass, Carbine, and Mayan King?

And shouldn't your #31 horse be spelled "Pot-oooooooo" as it was originally scrawled outside his stall?

And how long do you think it will be before all thoroughbreds trace directly from Whalebone?

Many I don't have in top 100...Hyperion is #35, Ormonde is #36, and Isinglass is #46. Potoooooooo's name was shortened to Pot8os I believe by his groom (not sure) and he's usually referred to thusly. Over 90% of all modern sires already trace to Whalebone. The son of Waxy, he the son of Pot8os...Pot8os of course the son of the great Eclipse!

[JJP]

I'm only going to go back to 1980, since other than the TC races, I didn't follow racing before then:

Distance: (male) Spectacular Bid (female) Princess Rooney
Sprinter: (male) Artax (female) Safely Kept
Turf: (male) tie- Manila & John Henry (female) Miesque

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, folks who know me know that I maintain a list of "100 Greatest" in history of racing...always fun to post it and listen to folks complain when their personal favorite is ranked lower than they think or...god forbid...not at all! I've done the homework and can defend every ranking but it really is quite arbitrary, the further back in history one goes, the more subjective you become...anyway, my top 20 are:
1. Secretariat/ Kincsem (tie)
3. Ribot
4. Citation
5. Man O War
6. Flying Childers
7. Sea Bird
8. Eclipse
9. Native Dancer
10. Count Fleet
11. Spectacular Bid
12. St Simon
13. Kelso
14. War Admiral
15. Seattle Slew
16. Ruffian
17. Affirmed
18. Colin
19. Dr Fager
20. Exterminator

Somer--I like your list. And everyone can find this and that with the list. Out of curiosity, why do you have Ruffian but not Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Somer--I like your list. And everyone can find this and that with the list. Out of curiosity, why do you have Ruffian but not Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret?

To me, the greatest mares of all time are :
1. Kincsem (co-1)
2. Ruffian (16)
3. Personal Ensign (25)
4. Lady's Secret (41)
5. Miss Woodford (54)
6. Imp (55)
7. Fashion (64)
8. Firenze (68)
9. Pretty Polly (69)
10. Regret (77)
11. Miesque (82)
12. Busher (92)
13. Pan Zareta (95)
14. Ruthless (98)
These at least are the ones I included in my top 100 (noted position).

[sham]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

To me, the greatest mares of all time are :
1. Kincsem (co-1)
2. Ruffian (16)
3. Personal Ensign (25)
4. Lady's Secret (41)
5. Miss Woodford (54)
6. Imp (55)
7. Fashion (64)
8. Firenze (68)
9. Pretty Polly (69)
10. Regret (77)
11. Miesque (82)
12. Busher (92)
13. Pan Zareta (95)
14. Ruthless (98)
These at least are the ones I included in my top 100 (noted position).

How can you leave off Go For Wand? She and Ruffian were about the same. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how you "grade" the horses.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by sham

How can you leave off Go For Wand? She and Ruffian were about the same. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how you "grade" the horses.

Go For Wand was a nice filly....but if you want her in the top 100, take the years of research and the months of study and create your own list. You will wait even longer for me to justify my methods, it would take days to explain every detail and...don't take this wrong...your opinion just isn't that important to me.

[sham]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Go For Wand was a nice filly....but if you want her in the top 100, take the years of research and the months of study and create your own list. You will wait even longer for me to justify my methods, it would take days to explain every detail and...don't take this wrong...your opinion just isn't that important to me.

I have done the work. Years of work. I too have a list and I have posted it on other forums...along with an explanation as to my grading criteria. Until you do that, your list cannot be taken seriously. Your list may be perfectly fine by your criteria. After all, who can prove you wrong about the relative quality of horses that will never meet on the track.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by sham

I have done the work. Years of work. I too have a list and I have posted it on other forums...along with an explanation as to my grading criteria. Until you do that, your list cannot be taken seriously. Your list may be perfectly fine by your criteria. After all, who can prove you wrong about the relative quality of horses that will never meet on the track.

Who the hell are you to say my list can't be taken seriously? I've made well over 40,000 posts on the ESPN Board over the past 8-9 years and took a large amount of time to list all 100 horses ALONG WITH A DETAILED EVALUATION of each including racing record, awards won, dosage and breeding extracts...all this tied together to explain my evaluation of every horse! I posted this twice...took 4 posts each time due to ESPN limits. In addition, I have repeatedly spoken at great length about my grading philosophy and techniques and now you come along and insult all these efforts without ever seeing them.....because I don't care to go through it all again?? Well buddy, post your list and let folks have a go at it. Been there, done that...it's my list and I stand behind it...think what you want but don't tell me all my work "cannot be taken seriously"

Originally Posted by somerfrost

To me, the greatest mares of all time are :
1. Kincsem (co-1)
2. Ruffian (16)
3. Personal Ensign (25)
4. Lady's Secret (41)
5. Miss Woodford (54)
6. Imp (55)
7. Fashion (64)
8. Firenze (68)
9. Pretty Polly (69)
10. Regret (77)
11. Miesque (82)
12. Busher (92)
13. Pan Zareta (95)
14. Ruthless (98)
These at least are the ones I included in my top 100 (noted position).

Could you imagine this group lining up for a race. The top 4 are prob 4 of my favorite horses of all time.