Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

IMO Holy Bull was a better horse than Cigar. As was Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Formal Gold and Skip Away.

LOL@ the might mineshaft who ducked the big 1@anita(well connections did) and who only prevailed in 5 horse fields, and got worked in large ones against the likes of BS and PD

[KirisClown]

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Both were true champions, with hearts the size of the racetrack... They would have laughed at horses like Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away.. etc.

[The Bid]

Cigar couldnt have gotten Spectacular Bid out of a jog.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Literally accurate? Not sure.

Funny? Hilarious!

I haven't formulated a full opinion yet -- still thinking about the "brought new fans to the sport" angle -- but aside from a horse like Cigar, with an historic win streak, the titans from the late 70s dwarf most (if not all) of the "greats" thereafter.

Agreed that comparing to Cigar to 70's or other superstars may be apples and oranges, but how do you think horse racing gets new fans? How did you get hooked? Parents? growing up near a track? There are many ways to get fresh blood in what can be a difficult "inner circle" to navigate and I really think that superstars, or preceived superstars, are a big part of it.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Agreed that comparing to Cigar to 70's or other superstars may be apples and oranges, but how do you think horse racing gets new fans? How did you get hooked? Parents? growing up near a track? There are many ways to get fresh blood in what can be a difficult "inner circle" to navigate and I really think that superstars, or preceived superstars, are a big part of it.

I don't think he is "hooked"..Personally I think he just like to being a world class Dumb Ass...lol

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Yes, superstar horses can make fans of people; I just haven't seen enough of "new blood" around the racetrack. And I attend live racing often enough to notice. Since superstar horses race so infrequently now, I do not count on them to be the engine driving people to become racing fans.

My father introduced me to racing, perhaps unwittingly. My appreciation of racing is in the genes, without question. I was studying the racing program at a very young age.

I don't think it is apples and oranges to compare Cigar from the mid-90s to the greats from the mid- to late 70s, actually. I thought that The Bid's post about Cigar not getting Spectacular Bid out of a gallop was terrific. Clearly, The Bid was better, as was Affirmed, and Seattle Slew.

Did you read Steven Crist's article in the DRF this morning of how things have differed from the card of the 1987 Travers?

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...1&subs=0&arc=0

If anyone invents a time machine, I'd like to buy a ticket for one please.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What a huge difference between then and now. For breed and racing quality, Then (racing without Lasix) beats Now (running with Lasix, Bute, and steroids) by a mile.

Hate to rain on your parade but Bute and steroids were around in 1987. If you knew what was done to horses then in lieu of Lasix, you would be a big fan of it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Why were Thoroughbreds able to race more frequently than today's version -- especially at the Grade 1, 2, and 3 levels -- if the same, or similar drugs were in use two decades ago? What has changed?

Is the bottom line that American racing absolutely, positively, cannot be conducted without race-day Lasix, Bute, and steroids?

Drugs are an easy copout for the entire industry. Very easy for the breeders to blame as it takes the focus off of them. Easy for the fans to blame them because there is much more awareness of what is going on nowdays. But the fact is that things were not a whole lot different then and now in terms of medicating horses. What has changed is that the sales arena became the most powerful economic factor in the late 70's about the time we started breeding a whole lot more horses than we used to. The eventual bust of the market brought the numbers back to realistic numbers but the damage to the breed was done.

Drugs, legal or otherwise, have virtually nothing to do with the genetic makeup of horses. The fact that some horses may have competeted at a higher level because of them means squat in terms of producing horses. Some of the best horses of our generation like Alysheba and Coronado's Quest (neither who would be considered to be "juice" horses) got tremendous books of mares yet were absolute busts at stud.

What I do think has led to the "softness" of modern day horses is the proliferation of the blood of Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat, and Danzig. Danzig broke down after 3 starts, Storm Cat was not effective past 2 and Mr. Prospector was strictly a 6 furlong horse. Think about that for a minute and ask yourself why modern day horses who are filled with the blood of those 3 should be durable distance horses? Take a look at the upcoming Keeneland sale and see how many hips you can go without seeing one of those 3 in the pedigree? Consider that on the female side, virtually no filly's with any breeding at all, are not bred despite horrible conformation or other issues. We just correct the foals artificially with surgeries and pass them off as new.

Now days you have to take into consideration that graded stake horses are treated as assets instead of racehorses. The reason that this practice is allowed is because the power breeders don't insist on a deep race record as a requirement. As long as a horse has a good pedigree and he has knocked off a couple of big races, he is a prime stallion option. Being that the stud books are in the 100's, the farms that stand stallions don't have to be right nearly as much as the 1st few years of stud fees easily cover the price of the horse.

What it really comes down to in this day and age is like most other areas of our society. It is a numbers game and money is the greatest motivator, even over ego. I hate the way the game is played now but being I make a living at it I have to deal with it. It is hard to blame the trainers of the big horses as they are under a lot of pressure not to lose once a horse reaches a certain status. It is just too bad that a billionaire owner has yet to stand up and race and resist the urge to cash out. I guess Stronach bringing back Ghostzapper for one more year, is as close to that as we get (though he was hardly overraced)

[Danzig]

can't help wondering tho, are todays horses really more fragile? or does the dollar dictate the sparse racing schedule, the early retirement? i think it is partly responsible for the barely double-digit starts for most horses. look back over the years, take man o war for instance. he raced the exact same number of races as secretariat, 50-some years later. both raced only at two and three. both were highly prized in the shed. both retired sound. count fleet, who ran in the forties, smack between the two big reds, raced 21 times as well, the same number as the other two. also retired at three, after the belmont (sound familiar?). dr fager, native dancer and seattle slew ran at four, with doc and native dancer running 22 times, and slew only 17.

the use of drugs is a bone of contention, keeping horses on the track that years ago would not have been, BUT by the same token, miracles of modern science have helped to heal horses that years ago would have been lost.

i think many horses are handled with kid gloves these days not so much due to fragility, but due to monetary value. it's no longer a sport, but a business. it's not a matter of who breeds the best horse and proves it on the track, but who can win a fancy race and beat the rush to the shed.

[Sightseek]

Best since Bid = Ghostzapper

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Rankings like this are by nature a little arbitrary so I usually don't like to say something like "You are wrong" in a discussion like this. But I will make an exception in this case. You are wrong.
I would like for you to explain to me how horses like Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, etc. etc. etc. are "not even close" to being as good as the two you mentioned. I mean I know those three aren't in the same league as the likes of Birdstone and Giacomo, but they were pretty good.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Rankings like this are by nature a little arbitrary so I usually don't like to say something like "You are wrong" in a discussion like this. But I will make an exception in this case. You are wrong.
I would like for you to explain to me how horses like Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, etc. etc. etc. are "not even close" to being as good as the two you mentioned. I mean I know those three aren't in the same league as the likes of Birdstone and Giacomo, but they were pretty good.

It was a joke... If I was inept enough to believe what I posted, Id kill myself.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

It was a joke... If I was inept enough to believe what I posted, Id kill myself.

Oh....well in that case....your dry sense of humor is appreciated.

[Echo Farm]

Speakiing of Skip Away, his Florida Derby saddle cloth is on eBay

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

Speakiing of Skip Away, his Florida Derby saddle cloth is on eBay

$3500??? holy smokes

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

Speakiing of Skip Away, his Florida Derby saddle cloth is on eBay

Speaking of Skip Away, the result of probably the best mare he was ever booked to (Lady's Secret) finally broke his maiden at 5, after never hitting the board in 7 previous tries, in the 8th at Del Mar. Unfortunately, despite being among the top 5 fillies of all time she was never much of a producer. Only 3 of her offspring have ever even won a race in the US.

[Buffymommy]

Jeez. Cigar was a very nice horse, but the best in the last 30 years? And better than Skippy? I don't think so.

How many times did Cigar and Skippy face off? Who won?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think it might have been a joke.

Oh it was certainly a joke. The question is, was it an intentional or unintentional joke?
That I can't answer.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yep that one. Not really sure "worked" is the way I would describe his getting beat by Perfect Drift though. Unless I missed something and getting "worked" means getting beat a head. He was also second in the other "working" he got by Balto Star. Yeah he sucked. Real pigs win 4 grade 1's in a year. Keep up the good work!

Speaking of Balto Star... You know I have him on my "DRF horse watch list" and every so often (recently as last month) I get a workout for the old guy....
How old is that horse now?