Polyhater...

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

All of these major races run over the artifical surfaces have looked like eyesores to me.

Just ugly looking races.

I guess if you like watching slow-paced races, with bunched up fields, and horses racing fairly erratically it might be for you. It's about as entertaining as watching pacers without sulkys.

There is something very beautiful when watching an awesome performance, by a top class horse, in a truly run dirt race.

After I make any notes I need, I tape over these major synthetic races because they are tremendously unenjoyable to watch.

The only two from this year that I know I still have kept tape of are the Blue Grass and Hollywood Gold Cup. Obviously two painfully ugly races to watch, but I had to keep the one because it represented the deepest field in a Derby prep, and the other one because it represented Lava Man's 3rd straight Gold Cup.

Watching Domincan rally wide into the teeth of disgracefully slow fractions, to nab Street Sense, is almost unbearable.

The Hollywood Gold Cup might have been even harder to watch....with Ap Xcellent (who's never won on anything but cushion track) losing to Lava Man by a nose, with a stoutly closing and moderate Big Booster flying at him.

The races are run like turf races, but horses don't close with those exciting late bursts like they do on turf. It's more of a steady grinding move.

If racing everywhere was switched from natural dirt surfaces, to artifical dirt surfaces, I would obviously still be involved in day-to-day betting and nothing like that would change.

But, there is no way I'd consider myself a fan of the sport anymore. I love true dirt racing, and have a video library with tapes of races from virtually every Graded Stakes winner this decade, virtually every Grade 1 winner through the 90's, virtually every champion to race from the 80's, and all of the top horses from the 70's.

I can only speak for myself, but I find polytrack racing to be tremendously boring and uninteresting. Even when you have a bet on the race, you still feel like you want to sleep away the first half of the race.

But hey, we all know how natural dirt is such a demanding and crippling surface.

I agree with much of what you say but the hollywood races still are run like dirt, they dont bunch up as you describe and the fractions are reasonble.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I agree with much of what you say but the hollywood races still are run like dirt, they dont bunch up as you describe and the fractions are reasonble.

The longer they go, the worse speed seems to do at HP.

As I'm sure you know, looking at naked fractions can be overrated, because a track can be made to play faster. It doesn't change the way the races are run much at all, but it does help produce times that aren't silly looking.

Last fall at Keeneland, the polytrack was strongly favoring closers and the paces were comically slow. After a few weeks, I remember articles being written complaining about the ridiculious way those races had been run. Beyer among them.

They made the track very fast for the final few days of the meet, Calculating Man broke the six furlong track record, and suffered a fatal injury right after the wire.

For whatever reason, that breakdown went unreported, but I believe I'd heard it was caused by a back injury.

[JJP]

Polytrack races are brutal to watch. I loved betting AP for 25 years and I can barely watch their non-grass races now. And Kee is even worse.

IMO, the only track that really needed a synthetic surface was Turfway, and IMO, of the artificial surfaces in use now, plays more like dirt than the others.

[The Bid]

None of them needed polytrack. They needed to reconfigure, and relay the dirt, its sad

[JJP]

I wonder which of the synthetic tracks will be the first to go back to conventional dirt. It may take time, but I would not be surprised to see it happen within 5-7 years.

[Antitrust32]

The final time for the 1 and 1/16th race at Arlington over the polycrap with Pavarotti was 1:49 3/5.

The final time for the 1 and 1/8th Swaps over dirt was a full second faster 1:48 3/5.


I wonder if that means Tiago would have won the Arlington race by 35 lengths or so?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

The final time for the 1 and 1/16th race at Arlington over the polycrap with Pavarotti was 1:49 3/5.

The final time for the 1 and 1/8th Swaps over dirt was a full second faster 1:48 3/5.


I wonder if that means Tiago would have won the Arlington race by 35 lengths or so?

Lori the Arlington race was a mile and an eighth as well, they don't run a mile and a sixteenth at Arlington (it's a 9F oval, like Saratoga, so the gate would be like 30 yards from the turn).

[JJP]

The Round Table was at 1 1/8 miles but AP DOES run 1 1/16 mile races. They hadn't for years but have run quite a few of them this year, w/the finish line at the 1/16th pole.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by JJP

The Round Table was at 1 1/8 miles but AP DOES run 1 1/16 mile races. They hadn't for years but have run quite a few of them this year, w/the finish line at the 1/16th pole.

Did not know that. If they ever get the BC again they should ABSOLUTELY do that for the 2YO races (or back them up to a mile out of the chute, preferably), the 9F was too far for them.

[JJP]

That's a good point. I'm not sure they're going to make another attempt for it, but it is a great facility.

I think there's one benefit to racing fans from Polytrack: less talk about bounces. Trainers who believe horses shouldn't run races less than 50 days apart are going to have a very difficult time. Fitness and stamina now supercede speed and to an extent, ability. If you haven't run within 25 days and hadn't had at least 1 workout since (no 3f crap, either), you have almost no chance on the carpet.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by philcski

Lori the Arlington race was a mile and an eighth as well, they don't run a mile and a sixteenth at Arlington (it's a 9F oval, like Saratoga, so the gate would be like 30 yards from the turn).

Oh, in the Bloodhorse it said 1 1/16th... so I went with it!

http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=39770

"The final time for the 1 1/16-mile Round Table was 1:49 3/5 on the Polytrack."

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Oh, in the Bloodhorse it said 1 1/16th... so I went with it!

http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=39770

"The final time for the 1 1/16-mile Round Table was 1:49 3/5 on the Polytrack."

I just checked equibase and it is 1 1/8th.... I thought it wasnt possible for stakes horses to run so slow, I'm glad it was just a bloodhorse error!

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They made the track very fast for the final few days of the meet, Calculating Man broke the six furlong track record, and suffered a fatal injury right after the wire.

For whatever reason, that breakdown went unreported, but I believe I'd heard it was caused by a back injury.

I know it is completely off topic, but what did you think of First Defence today?

[ateamstupid]

From the little AP races I've seen this meet, the poly seems to be pretty fair. KEE, however, was an absolute joke in the spring. Not sure if it's the weather, the upkeep or what, but I'd bet AP over KEE in a heartbeat right now.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I know it is completely off topic, but what did you think of First Defence today?

I haven't really put the race under a microscope, but from watching it, my impression was that I don't think we learned a whole lot about how good he is today.

He had a fairly soft looking trip, and was beating a field of horses he seemed very capable of beating.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I haven't really put the race under a microscope, but from watching it, my impression was that I don't think we learned a whole lot about how good he is today.

He had a fairly soft looking trip, and was beating a field of horses he seemed very capable of beating.

Thanks, I appreciate your opinion...hopefully we see him get the test in a few weeks. If he goes to the Haskell, Cable Boy looks good and the race should draw either SS or Curlin. The remainder of the year for the three year olds should be interesting.

[Swap Fliparoo]

Kee polytrack is a big equalizer of form... if Dominican, Teuf, and Street Sense finish together in a photo, then no one can hope to handicap it.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Swap Fliparoo

Kee polytrack is a big equalizer of form... if Dominican, Teuf, and Street Sense finish together in a photo, then no one can hope to handicap it.

yea, one won the derby and almost the preakness, the other won the woody steavens and narrowly lost the carry back.....race did not tell us a thing about the best of the generation.

[Swap Fliparoo]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

yea, one won the derby and almost the preakness, the other won the woody steavens and narrowly lost the carry back.....race did not tell us a thing about the best of the generation.

Teuf has looked much more like a sprinter in the final analysis. That he was able to carry his speed to nearly win a 1 1/8 G1 seems somewhat tragic to me. And Dominican just ran 3rd in a hardly world-beating stake yesterday...

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I haven't really put the race under a microscope, but from watching it, my impression was that I don't think we learned a whole lot about how good he is today.

He had a fairly soft looking trip, and was beating a field of horses he seemed very capable of beating.

Yeah, pretty much how I saw it. We didn't really really learn anything more than if they gave him an aggressive work.