Bonds voted to All Star team

[King Glorious]

I doubt that anyone is under more scrutiny in sports these days than Barry Bonds. I don't think he could get away with using ANYTHING these days. Yet here he is, into his 40's and STILL with 17 hr's thus far this season. The other day, he even stole another base. I think it's great as well as deserving for him to be on the all-star team and I can't wait till he breaks the record. This is how I look at it. It is alleged that Bonds started with the steroids after watching McGwire and Sosa go crazy in 1998. Through that season, he had hit 411 career homers. He proceeded to hit in the upcoming seasons.......34 (in 102 games due to injury), 49, 73, 46, 45 and 45. So let's say that he was on something during that time and if he hadn't been, he would only have hit 35 per season during that stretch. That 35 per season average, certainly not unrealistic based on what he was doing up until that point, would give him 210 more homers. That would put him at 621. The next season he only played 14 games and only hit five. In a full season, give him another 25. That would put him at 646. He came back to hit 26 last year. That's 672 and he's got 17 this year which would be 689. It's not hard to see how he could be at the 700 mark, give or take a few, without taking anything at all. Now, I know some are wondering if projecting him to hit 35 a season during that six-year stretch might be giving him too much? I don't think so. During that stretch, he went from 35 to 40 years old. How many homers did the other two guys that have hit the 700 mark hit during those same age years?

Aaron:
797 games and 223 home runs, averaging 37.2 per year and hitting one every 3.57 games.

Ruth:
713 games and 198 home runs, averaging 33.0 per year and hitting one every 3.60 games.

So giving Barry 35 a year and 210 total in the six-year stretch after he is alleged to have started the steroid use is not giving him too much. But do people know that between 35 and 40, Ruth went over 40 hr's three times, including hitting 49 one season? Or how about that Aaron did it three times also, including setting his career high with 47 at age 37? Aaron was actually more productive from 35-40 than he had been from 30-34.

All of this is to say that it's very conceivable that Barry could still be right around the 700 mark or maybe even over 725. He probably wouldn't be nearing Aaron's record at this point though but could conceivably have done so with the completion of this year and by playing next. For me, the record is not tainted at all. And one thing that people forget is that he spent quite a few years in Pittsburgh and playing at Candlestick, neither of which were the easiest parks to hit home runs in. The dimensions of the park Barry plays in now have been one of the reasons his numbers have gone way up but nobody looks at that. Nobody recognizes the fact that Ruth was hitting to a right field fence that was under 300 ft away while the fence in Pittsburgh was around 335 ft or so. If Barry could have spent his entire career in Yankee Stadium, he might be around 850 home runs non-steroids and 1000 if he's actually been on them.

[timmgirvan]

KG: good theories.....one of my points being that if steriods were so rampant(and we do know that players used them)then why not the rush to stardom for the regular players? Instead of the Mendoza line at .200, we'd have had the Billy Russell line at .300!

[Danzig]

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

yeah, it should be. i agree with that. as for a-rod, i doubt he'd get any real praise, he's not much more liked than bonds.
now ken griffey jr on the other hand....

i tell you, if the media takes a dislike to you, look out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

Now now, just making a point that the HOF isn't about a guy's personal life. Ruth was known as quite the party animal, I have no problem with that...his life, but there are lots of guys who have had "issues" in the HOF. People single out Bonds unfairly imo...I know it has to do with the record and his dealings with the media and fans but still...this is a great accomplishment and since baseball did (and still has done) nothing to address roids, they should celebrate it! To date, there is no more hard evidence known to the public linking Bonds to roids than Ruth or Aaron.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

I....













...oh never mind.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power.

Definitely...especially in the post season


POSTSEASON BATTING STATS
Year Team G AB R H HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1990 PIT 6 18 4 3 0 1 6 5 2 0 .375 .167 .167
1991 PIT 7 27 1 4 0 0 2 4 3 0 .207 .185 .148
1992 PIT 7 23 5 6 1 2 6 4 1 0 .433 .435 .261
1997 SF 3 12 0 3 0 2 0 3 1 0 .231 .417 .250
2000 SF 4 17 2 3 0 1 3 4 1 0 .300 .353 .176
2002 SF 17 45 18 16 8 16 27 6 0 1 .581 .978 .356
2003 SF 4 9 3 2 0 2 8 0 1 0 .556 .333 .222
TOTALS: 48 151 33 37 9 24 52 26 9 1 .433 .503 .245

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

I think this makes it easier for the writers to tee off on him. I'm not passing judgement either way but it is easier to be negative about a bad guy than a good guy.

Just look at the Lance Armstrong situation. There is virtually no chance that he did what he did and was clean since the entire biking world was doping and the fact he was prescribed EPO during his cancer treatment. But he was a sympathetic figure who raises money for cancer. People are certainly more willing to give him a pass than Barry.

[PeteMugg]

Chuck, you beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Bonds has probably faced a lot of pitchers that are on the juice.

Juice, equipment, stadiums ... it's very difficult to compare one era to another. Aaron had a number to shoot at and so does Barry. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I give Bonds credit he can flat hit the ball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

Chuck, you beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Bonds has probably faced a lot of pitchers that are on the juice.

Juice, equipment, stadiums ... it's very difficult to compare one era to another. Aaron had a number to shoot at and so does Barry. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I give Bonds credit he can flat hit the ball.

He is a tremendous player that is a prick. He doesn't even try to act like a nice guy. But his achievements are monumental even if you want to downgrade them because of the era he did them in. Though anyone who thinks he is a better hitter than Babe Ruth needs to look at the numbers again

[Danzig]

how many games did it take ruth and aaron to get their records? how many seasons? and how many games a year did they play? certainly not 160-odd like now.
not that it matters. najran shares the mile record with dr fager, who carried a lot more weight...

bonds is definitely not concered with PR. no doubt he dries his tears with hundred dollar bills! i'd rather there not be a cloud of suspicion about it, but his own words and actions have contributed somewhat to that.

how much grief did aaron get on the way to breaking ruths' record? i do remember when ripken broke gehrigs string of starts, people started complaining when he kept starting and adding to his record-i found that bizarre. and that was for a much more popular player. there's no pleasing some.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He is a tremendous player that is a prick. He doesn't even try to act like a nice guy. But his achievements are monumental even if you want to downgrade them because of the era he did them in. Though anyone who thinks he is a better hitter than Babe Ruth needs to look at the numbers again

Too many intangibles to try to compare and numbers can be thrown out to favor them all. But Ruth was so far ahead when he was playing, I think that speaks volumes.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

KG: good theories.....one of my points being that if steriods were so rampant(and we do know that players used them)then why not the rush to stardom for the regular players? Instead of the Mendoza line at .200, we'd have had the Billy Russell line at .300!

Because if everyone was using them then the best players would still be the best players, no? Most of the minor leaguers that have been suspended for using steroids are pitchers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I doubt that anyone is under more scrutiny in sports these days than Barry Bonds. I don't think he could get away with using ANYTHING these days. Yet here he is, into his 40's and STILL with 17 hr's thus far this season. The other day, he even stole another base. I think it's great as well as deserving for him to be on the all-star team and I can't wait till he breaks the record. This is how I look at it. It is alleged that Bonds started with the steroids after watching McGwire and Sosa go crazy in 1998. Through that season, he had hit 411 career homers. He proceeded to hit in the upcoming seasons.......34 (in 102 games due to injury), 49, 73, 46, 45 and 45. So let's say that he was on something during that time and if he hadn't been, he would only have hit 35 per season during that stretch. That 35 per season average, certainly not unrealistic based on what he was doing up until that point, would give him 210 more homers. That would put him at 621. The next season he only played 14 games and only hit five. In a full season, give him another 25. That would put him at 646. He came back to hit 26 last year. That's 672 and he's got 17 this year which would be 689. It's not hard to see how he could be at the 700 mark, give or take a few, without taking anything at all. Now, I know some are wondering if projecting him to hit 35 a season during that six-year stretch might be giving him too much? I don't think so. During that stretch, he went from 35 to 40 years old. How many homers did the other two guys that have hit the 700 mark hit during those same age years?

Aaron:
797 games and 223 home runs, averaging 37.2 per year and hitting one every 3.57 games.

Ruth:
713 games and 198 home runs, averaging 33.0 per year and hitting one every 3.60 games.

So giving Barry 35 a year and 210 total in the six-year stretch after he is alleged to have started the steroid use is not giving him too much. But do people know that between 35 and 40, Ruth went over 40 hr's three times, including hitting 49 one season? Or how about that Aaron did it three times also, including setting his career high with 47 at age 37? Aaron was actually more productive from 35-40 than he had been from 30-34.

All of this is to say that it's very conceivable that Barry could still be right around the 700 mark or maybe even over 725. He probably wouldn't be nearing Aaron's record at this point though but could conceivably have done so with the completion of this year and by playing next. For me, the record is not tainted at all. And one thing that people forget is that he spent quite a few years in Pittsburgh and playing at Candlestick, neither of which were the easiest parks to hit home runs in. The dimensions of the park Barry plays in now have been one of the reasons his numbers have gone way up but nobody looks at that. Nobody recognizes the fact that Ruth was hitting to a right field fence that was under 300 ft away while the fence in Pittsburgh was around 335 ft or so. If Barry could have spent his entire career in Yankee Stadium, he might be around 850 home runs non-steroids and 1000 if he's actually been on them.

You make some great points. I honestly believe that if he hadn't hit 73 he would not be nearly as big a villian. If he had hit 59 that year, he would not be liked but I just think that he would not be as hated. that one year just kind of looks out of whack which makes people more leery of him.

Not to be picky but 2 points. Aaron benefited from a rule change in 1969 when the mounds were lowered which may have aided him during his 35-40 years along with playing in a stadium with very favorable HR conditions. Ruth's later years were also spent in an envirorment where there were many more HR's hit than when he was in his 20's.

Though Ruth was damn good in 1920 hitting 54 HR's to 19 for runnerup George Sisler, his 1921 season was amazing. He hit 59 HR's, had 171 Rbi's, scored 177 runs, had 44 2b's , 163bs, 457 total bases, hit .378, had an .512 On base average, walked 145 times and created 233 runs. All in an era where the second leading home runs for a team was Philadelphia with 82.

BTW- they were playing in the Polo Grounds during those years, not Yankee Stadium.

Of course both Ruth and Aaron were finished as players after 40, where Bonds continues to be a productive player in a weak lineup