What myths can be put to rest?

[randallscott35]

Somer is busy somewhere with a Sharpie.

[Danzig]

well, the two prep thing i felt wasn't that big an angle...didn't have a huge gap between the last horse to do it and yesterday.
i guess it just goes to show you that the right trainer, for the right horse, who he understands, can do the right thing and win it. much like matz last year.
also goes to show, that a smaller-time trainer (meaning a real hands on horsemen) such as matz, tagg, nafzger, can win this over a huge operation that can't possibly have enough individual attention paid by the 'trainer'.

[Cajungator26]

Well... one thing I WILL watch for is the horses coming over last minute from Keeneland. Pletcher didn't have a real final work over Churchill's surface with any of his horses (besides Sam P., right?)

[Danzig]

i think maybe todd should do more with the horses then just making sure he saddles them all come derby day. maybe a little more hands on throughout the spring?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Well... one thing I WILL watch for is the horses coming over last minute from Keeneland. Pletcher didn't have a real final work over Churchill's surface with any of his horses (besides Sam P., right?)

Good point, in the past, many trainers preferred to stay at Keeneland where it was a bit quieter and prepare for the Derby. Now, with the poly surface, things will probably change. It use to be something to look at...when a horse got to the track and whether he/she worked over it, then along came DWL and we heard "D Wayne off the plane" as he and others shipped in race day and won stakes all over the country. Poly is the future I suspect but many have pointed out that since a horse moves over it easier, they don't get the stamina (and possibly two year olds don't get the muscle/bone development) that horses working on dirt do. Carl had Street Sense at CD and it certainly didn't hurt. I will watch to see when he ships to Pimlico.
Regarding the angles, as Skippy said...they are helpful when used properly. I used them as I always do and still ended up with the winner as one of two horses I bet, last year I had Barbaro despite them...they are considerations/information not absolutes...a good horse can overcome trends, a great horse will overcome most anything. Saying Curlin disproved anything is ridicious, the 5LT race and 2yo race angles say "no horse has won"...Curlin didn't win...end of discussion! In fact he wasn't a serious factor. Yes, he had a rough trip...every year we hear from all the losers how rough a trip they had...it's part of the race!

[Pedigree Ann]

Street Sense was prepared the old-fashioned way. He raced from July to the start of November (end of October? I forget the exact date), then got the winter off. He didn't run again until mid-March, had plenty of time to grow up and develop into his frame. Secretariat had exactly the same sort of preparation, although he fit 3 races in before the Derby, not 2 -today's schedules would make a suitable 3 at 2-week intervals hard to find.

The thing he DIDN'T do was continue racing once every 5-6 weeks through the winter, which has become commonplace. A young horse who is continutally in race-training for 9 months will go off form or get injured at some point, unless it is Jim French, who ran his worst race off a 4-week rest. But Jimbo was a throwback, not a soft-boned Storm Cat descendent.

[skippy3481]

Yes, god i understand that about hard spun, in fact as i've stated several times, hard spun ran a hell of a race. However with 20 horses entered you have to find a way to eliminate some of them. This was one way i eliminated them. And last time i checked hard spun didn't win.

[cassie]

how much did the drug testing beforehand affect the pletcher, oneil ;asmussen horses?

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Street Sense was prepared the old-fashioned way. He raced from July to the start of November (end of October? I forget the exact date), then got the winter off.

That's a really interesting observation- I've read other articles discussing the year-round racing schedule and how it likely contributes to injuries because horses are in training year-round. The argument being a few months off gives minor injuries time to heal on their own before they become big ones. And vacations are good for most of us, mentally, I think.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

That's a really interesting observation- I've read other articles discussing the year-round racing schedule and how it likely contributes to injuries because horses are in training year-round. The argument being a few months off gives minor injuries time to heal on their own before they become big ones. And vacations are good for most of us, mentally, I think.

a lot of people have made the argument about wintering....wonder how many people realize that man o wars first start at three was the preakness?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

That's a really interesting observation- I've read other articles discussing the year-round racing schedule and how it likely contributes to injuries because horses are in training year-round. The argument being a few months off gives minor injuries time to heal on their own before they become big ones. And vacations are good for most of us, mentally, I think.

Perfect Drift's been getting winter vacations pretty much forever too, right?

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Well... one thing I WILL watch for is the horses coming over last minute from Keeneland. Pletcher didn't have a real final work over Churchill's surface with any of his horses (besides Sam P., right?)

Good point. But CQ had proven he liked Churchill, so getting him to train there was a big deal... maybe it was for the others though.

If it doesnt matter whether Street Sense ran a race in Feb. or not, then how can it matter whether Curlin ran a race in Dec. or not? Another myth?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by easy goer

If it doesnt matter whether Street Sense ran a race in Feb. or not, then how can it matter whether Curlin ran a race in Dec. or not? Another myth?

i think it mattered that he only had 3 lifetime starts...and of course, unless you want to overrun your horse come spring, how else is your horse going to get racing experience then to run him at two?

would more racing, more experience, and more overall fitness (physical and mental) have made the difference between a board finish and a win?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by easy goer

If it doesnt matter whether Street Sense ran a race in Feb. or not, then how can it matter whether Curlin ran a race in Dec. or not? Another myth?

Obviously that's what you believe so why waste time arguing, the simple fact is that no horse without a two year old race has won the Derby since 1882. We've discussed the research that implies that two year old racing and training for a race is very important in a young horse's bone/muscle development so there is at least implied basis for that angle. If you can find research that applies to 3yo racing in February then that can be discussed.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, the two prep thing i felt wasn't that big an angle...didn't have a huge gap between the last horse to do it and yesterday.
i guess it just goes to show you that the right trainer, for the right horse, who he understands, can do the right thing and win it. much like matz last year.
also goes to show, that a smaller-time trainer (meaning a real hands on horsemen) such as matz, tagg, nafzger, can win this over a huge operation that can't possibly have enough individual attention paid by the 'trainer'.

That's an excellent point Danzig. Megastables like Pletcher and Asmus don't just win b/c they have more horses in the race....Tagg and Servis and Matz and Nafzger....Couldn't be happier with these types of guys.

[byalip]

A good horse can overcome a donkey on his back...to wit, Curlin was good enough not to be hampered by that idiot Robbie Albarado.