All charges being dropped

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

No. I disagree wholeheartedly, because the way you're framing Sharpton and Jackson in this case paints them exactly how they want to be painted: Infallible.

You're holding them up in this case (which resembles some other cases they get involved with, even if only slightly) so that if she is telling the truth, they can be right by galavanting around talking about race when we should have been talking about strippers and rape from the get-go anyway. If they're wrong, which it certainly seems like they are, they just hush their mouths and never mention it again. No, they should be responsible for what they say in the very same way they want others to be responsible for what they say. It should be (dream world of course) that their threshold of accountability is at exactly the level they want to hold others to.

They were wrong. They race baited this situation, and they were wrong. Plain and simple. But you give them a free pass because of how you felt about them in the 60s? I don't mean to show my youthful ignorance, but times are a changing my friend.

Now I need to get out of this thread and stop agreeing with Grits before my head catches on fire out of the sheer irony.

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

It was only of "great significance" to their community because she was Black. This should have been about a stripper's rape at a party, no more, no less.

There has been outrage aplenty for the DA, but deflecting the conversation solely towards him ignores the fact that Sharpton and those of his ilk race bait every chance they get....which is one of the most patently racist things one can do. This had nothing to do with her being Black. Her being Black did not cause the Duke guys to fake rape her. Rape should be of great significance to everyone of every color, but there was hardly any racial injustice involved in this case. And every time one of them frames what should be a horrific, yet colorless situation with us vs. them color fits, their credibility will further unravel.

Grits made a point of talking about the DA, because anyone following this case has been repulsed by his actions. But the fact remains that this was not a racial issue in the least, and because Sharpton and Jackson et al want to frame it as one...then let's do that, let's frame it as one. Now that it's been properly framed by these two "leaders" let's get back to them being wrong and not being held accountable for it. I don't suggest I am speaking for Grits or anyone else when I say that, but that's the very reason why this issue has to do with men like that. They **** on the floor, and now they're stepping in it and everybody's too ****ing afraid to call them out for it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It was only of "great significance" to their community because she was Black. This should have been about a stripper's rape at a party, no more, no less.

There has been outrage aplenty for the DA, but deflecting the conversation solely towards him ignores the fact that Sharpton and those of his ilk race bait every chance they get....which is one of the most patently racist things one can do. This had nothing to do with her being Black. Her being Black did not cause the Duke guys to fake rape her. Rape should be of great significance to everyone of every color, but there was hardly any racial injustice involved in this case. And every time one of them frames what should be a horrific, yet colorless situation with us vs. them color fits, their credibility will further unravel.

Grits made a point of talking about the DA, because anyone following this case has been repulsed by his actions. But the fact remains that this was not a racial issue in the least, and because Sharpton and Jackson et al want to frame it as one...then let's do that, let's frame it as one. Now that it's been properly framed by these two "leaders" let's get back to them being wrong and not being held accountable for it. I don't suggest I am speaking for Grits or anyone else when I say that, but that's the very reason why this issue has to do with men like that. They **** on the floor, and now they're stepping in it and everybody's too ****ing afraid to call them out for it.

Brian,
As much as you may want to ignore the simple truth, this WAS about race! It involved a poor black woman and wealthy (at least as reported, I don't know how wealthy their families are) white college boys. You can't ignore the past when wealthy white "boys" used black women any way they wanted...obviously race was front and center here! Why on earth would you expect black leaders not to be involved??? I agree 100% that these boys were victims...but not of Jesse Jackson, they were victims of a corrupt DA. The DA played the "race card" and he should suffer the consequences but to expect black leaders to remain silent in the face of this is ridiculous! They demanded justice...and, this time at least, justice is being served! Had this all been "swept under the rug", the DA would have probably hung these poor kids on manufactured "evidence" ...exactly the way black men and women were railroaded for countless years...that's the irony here!!

[Cajungator26]

Somer,

If equality is what is being seeked, then we MUST treat each and every case the EXACT same. It shouldn't have mattered what color her skin was... I don't give a shiat if she was white, black, green, purple, red... pick a color! This is what I don't understand... how we can expect equality in this country when people insist upon treating cases like this differently because of the color of someone's skin???

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Somer,

If equality is what is being seeked, then we MUST treat each and every case the EXACT same. It shouldn't have mattered what color her skin was... I don't give a shiat if she was white, black, green, purple, red... pick a color! This is what I don't understand... how we can expect equality in this country when people insist upon treating cases like this differently because of the color of someone's skin???

The case should have been treated the same regardless of her skin color or the boys...the fact is it was the DA who treated it differently! Since he needed the votes of blacks, he played the race card early and often. Black leaders have a responsibility to demand justice in such a case and that they did...so why blame them instead of the white man who was responsible??? You know, all this "we're all the same" sounds pretty hollow to a people who were beaten, tortured, murdered and enslaved not that long ago. Folks seem to want the black community to accept that there is a level playing field when clearly there is not! True equality won't occur in this culture...for women, racial minorities or gays until those with the power to change things start walking the walk instead of spouting a bunch of mindless crap....the reason this case hit a sore spot in the black community should be clear. When folks who are discriminated against start to see real change then color, sex and other stuff won't matter...but expecting folks to trust that they will be treated fairly when they never have been...well, that won't work!

[saucon17]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

The case should have been treated the same regardless of her skin color or the boys...the fact is it was the DA who treated it differently! Since he needed the votes of blacks, he played the race card early and often. Black leaders have a responsibility to demand justice in such a case and that they did...so why blame them instead of the white man who was responsible??? You know, all this "we're all the same" sounds pretty hollow to a people who were beaten, tortured, murdered and enslaved not that long ago. Folks seem to want the black community to accept that there is a level playing field when clearly there is not! True equality won't occur in this culture...for women, racial minorities or gays until those with the power to change things start walking the walk instead of spouting a bunch of mindless crap....the reason this case hit a sore spot in the black community should be clear. When folks who are discriminated against start to see real change then color, sex and other stuff won't matter...but expecting folks to trust that they will be treated fairly when they never have been...well, that won't work!

The person who should be thrown under the bus is
Michael Nifong he jumped to conclusions about this
case and he ruined the lives of many on the Duke
lacrosse team.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian,
As much as you may want to ignore the simple truth, this WAS about race! It involved a poor black woman and wealthy (at least as reported, I don't know how wealthy their families are) white college boys. You can't ignore the past when wealthy white "boys" used black women any way they wanted...obviously race was front and center here! Why on earth would you expect black leaders not to be involved??? I agree 100% that these boys were victims...but not of Jesse Jackson, they were victims of a corrupt DA. The DA played the "race card" and he should suffer the consequences but to expect black leaders to remain silent in the face of this is ridiculous! They demanded justice...and, this time at least, justice is being served! Had this all been "swept under the rug", the DA would have probably hung these poor kids on manufactured "evidence" ...exactly the way black men and women were railroaded for countless years...that's the irony here!!

So this case and OJ's acquittal are retribution for countless years of injustice??? It figures!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

So this case and OJ's acquittal are retribution for countless years of injustice??? It figures!

That doesn't deserve a response...I won't say what I probably should.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

That doesn't deserve a response...I won't say what I probably should.

You didn't need a response...you already made it in your treatise!

[Grits]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No Brian...we are saying that they are doing what they should be doing...calling attention to an issue that has great significance to their community. They are leaders and that is what leaders should do! Nobody is saying they don't make mistakes...as I said (repeatedly) I was very vocal when Sharpton screwed up the Brawley situation...innocent people suffer when accusations are treated as facts. And the times do change but people change a lot slower! We are the sum of our experiences...like them or not, we need outspoken leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton. There is no justification for the hell the Duke boys have gone through, but it was a corrupt WHITE official who caused their pain and the sins of our fathers who made it an issue!

No Somer, you're mistaken, without the lying of the accuser, NONE of this would have transpired to begin with.

DNA evidence of 3 men, whose semen was found in/on this woman, none of which were the three accused men, further lead the Attorney General's Office to realize the alleged victim was lying.

And you may be unaware, as many are on a national level, that this woman had done this very thing before. She had a history, and that was ignored. She was lying and she propelled, and put into place, the entire ghastly proceeding that cost a lot of people tremendous sums of money, not to mention the anguish.

Its interesting that you believe these men to be such fine leaders, but listening to members of the Heritage Foundation and other members of the black community as I did last night--they do not seem quite as convinced of their leadership skills.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Grits

No Somer, you're mistaken, without the lying of the accuser, NONE of this would have transpired to begin with.

DNA evidence of 3 men, whose semen was found in/on this woman, none of which were the three accused men, further lead the Attorney General's Office to realize the alleged victim was lying.

And you may be unaware, as many are on a national level, that this woman had done this very thing before. She had a history, and that was ignored. She was lying and she propelled, and put into place, the entire ghastly proceeding that cost a lot of people tremendous sums of money, not to mention the anguish.

Its interesting that you believe these men to be such fine leaders, but listening to members of the Heritage Foundation and other members of the black community as I did last night--they do not seem quite as convinced of their leadership skills.

Grits, I don't have much knowledge of what the woman said or didn't say...I do believe that she should be held responsible if she lied and while not familiar with NC law, I assume that filing a false police report is a crime. My point is that I will not assume anything about her behavior until the evidence is presented. The DA, on the other hand, is clearly responsible for using this mess to further his career and I feel confident in saying that. Clearly, there was a deliberate miscarriage of justice here and these boys suffered at the hands of a corrupt public official. We can debate forever the attributes (or lack thereof) of Jesse and Sharpton but I will always maintain that they were doing exactly what I would expect of them in becoming involved in this situation...now, could they have done things differently, spoken differently? Perhaps...and that is a matter for the black community to address...if they feel they are not good leaders then they can replace them...but, as leaders, they simply couldn't ignore a case such as this! And they aren't the ones responsible for the boys' pain here...lets put the blame where it belongs...with the DA, perhaps the woman, and our culture with it's history of abusing minorities and it's mindless preoccupation with dirt disguised as "news".

[Grits]

A good finale Somer, very good.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Grits

A good finale Somer, very good.

Yeah, I think I've gone about as far as I can here...we have much more in common than different and after awhile, we get stuck on an issue. Besides, I have the last episode of Xena to watch before Idol!

[Payson Dave]

Quote of the NC Att General:
“We have no credible evidence that an attack occurred in that house that night,” he said. “The eyewitness identification procedures were faulty and unreliable. No DNA confirms the accuser’s story. No other witness confirms her story. Other evidence contradicts her story. She contradicts herself. ”

I realize that it may be expecting an awful lot but..... those in leadership positions that jumped on the band wagon (including sharpton and jackson) to condemn the Lacrosse Players should be at least somewhat vocal/visible to acknowledge the reality of their innocence...

[skippy3481]

Jackson said his PUSH group would pay her way through college, I wonder if that offer will still be good. Somer heres my problem with jesse and Al. They both run groups that if by run white people would be considered racist.. Instead of advancing black people why don't we advance all people. Why can't they be equally outraged with when a black man rapes a white woman. Anytime something happens to a black person, its because they are black. I've seen this thought again and again firsthand. Until they get out of this thinking, they will never get closer to equality. Jesse and Al need to realize, sometimes its not about race.


If its more politically correct you can substute african-american for black. To be honest I'm not sure which is the current pc term