Gaza And Hamas

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

And the Israelis are civilized and prosperous because ... ? Because maybe they work very hard ... obey the law ... and treat each other ... and foreigners who don't share their religious beliefs ... with respect and courtesy

Hmmm ... and when are the Palestinians going to do the same for themselves?

Enough with the b.s. excuses for these hateful, vicious people.

Brooklynite, I don't defend or support terrorism in any way, shape or form, but you forget the Israelis are civilized and prosperous because they are supported by the USA.

Explain to me how, cut off by walls from their own lands, and devoid of any sort of financial support, how the general rank-and-file Palestinians are supposed to get any kind of financial leg underneath them? I'm curious to hear your plans for nation-building.

Israel/Palestine is as complicated a political situation as any of us will ever see-- Marshall warned Truman back in the '50s that recognizing Israel would lead to decades of violence. Was it right or wrong? After what happened to the Jews in WW2, it's hard to argue that they didn't have a right to a homeland. But people who had no part in what happened in WW2 were kicked out of their homes because another group of people said God promised them that land. Right or wrong?

Do I know the solution? Hell, no. But deciding the Palestinians are just being lazy and violent is simplistic at best. In a perfect world, Israel would surrender the West Bank, the Palestinians would give up the right of return and the Holy Cities would be put under UN control so no nation owned them. But fat chance that ever happening.

[GenuineRisk]

Wait; I think I mean the '40s, not the '50s. Bad GR! Can't keep history straight! 1948 was when we recognized Israel, yes? Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Wait; I think I mean the '40s, not the '50s. Bad GR! Can't keep history straight! 1948 was when we recognized Israel, yes? Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I am pretty sure that is correct.

But Hamas, which just won a pretty overwhelming little election in Palestine (and I do mean Palestine as Israel has given in to their autonomy), does not recognize Israel. And therein lies the problem. They wish for the death and total destruction of Israel, and thats just not gonna happen.
So as long as the Palestinians are represented by elected terrorists, both Palestinians and Israelis will suffer. It is much clearer now. The cards are turned up on the table.

[GenuineRisk]

Oh, very valid point, Pgardn, and I think the Palestinians should have burned Arafat in effigy for turning down the deal offered a few years' back that gave them 95 percent of what they wanted. But I don't think Palestine is likely to recognize Israel any sooner than Israel recognizes Palestine. And Hamas being elected hasn't helped any. It also puts us in a tight spot-- we wave our "Democracy! Democracy!" banner all over the place, and then get confronted by nations who democratically elect factions we don't like. If we recognize them, we tacitly support enemies of our allies. If we don't recognize them, we look like big hypocrites-- charging into Iraq and decimating the nation to establish "democracy" when we by our actions in other nations indicate we may not respect what a sovereign nation's people choose.

Oh God, this makes my head hurt. No wonder people like to watch that American TASS, Fox News-- it keeps it easy: "Us good! Them bad!". The truth, on the other hand, is almost always much more complicated...

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Brooklynite, I don't defend or support terrorism in any way, shape or form, but you forget the Israelis are civilized and prosperous because they are supported by the USA.

The Palestinians receive far more aid per capita from foreign governments than Israel ever has.

Israel became prosperous the way every other country has become prosperous ... by living under the rule of law themselves ... and applying that same rule of law to their foreign guests.

Prosperity begins with safety and freedom ... and you can't have either if your only thought ... your obsession ... is to kill everyone who disagrees with you.

The Palestinians are economically poor because they're morally bankrupt.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The Palestinians receive far more aid per capita from foreign governments than Israel ever has.

Israel became prosperous the way every other country has become prosperous ... by living under the rule of law themselves ... and applying that same rule of law to their foreign guests.

Prosperity begins with safety and freedom ... and you can't have either if your only thought ... your obsession ... is to kill everyone who disagrees with you.

The Palestinians are economically poor because they're morally bankrupt.

BB, can you post some statistics to back up that assertion, please? Be sure to include defense funding in those numbers. And the source from where you get the statistics that Palestinians receive more aid per capita, and how much aid they get per capita. And the total amount received by the Palestinians and by the Israelis, since you say Palestine has received more aid than Israel ever had.

Believe it or not, I'm not disputing; I just want the facts and the source so I can cross-check it. Post them, please!

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

BB, can you post some statistics to back up that assertion, please? Be sure to include defense funding in those numbers. And the source from where you get the statistics that Palestinians receive more aid per capita, and how much aid they get per capita. And the total amount received by the Palestinians and by the Israelis, since you say Palestine has received more aid than Israel ever had.

Believe it or not, I'm not disputing; I just want the facts and the source so I can cross-check it. Post them, please!

Neither the Israeli economy nor the Palestinian economy benefits significantly from foreign aid ... but for very different reasons.

The aid to Israel is used almost exclusively for defense ... and the reason they need it for defense is because the Arab nations keep attacking them. Absent unprovoked attacks against its very existence ... Israel would not need ... nor want .... any foreign aid.

The aid to the Palestinians is intended for economic benefit ... but almost none reaches the average Palestinian ... because their "leaders" steal it from them. Can you say, "Suha Arafat is alive and well in Paris"?

I repeat ... Israel is a modern and prosperous country because it lives by the rule of law ... and applies the same rule of law to everyone.

The Palestinians are impoverished and backward because they are morally bankrupt.

Any country can become prosperous ... by providing safety and freedom for its citizens and visitors. Switzerland ... a small, landlocked, mountainous country in the center of Europe ... became the birthplace of chocolate confections ... the basis of which ... cocoa ... is a tropical plant. If Switzerland can score a big success with chocolate ... any country can be successful with anything ... provided it is lawful and honorable.

If the Palestiinians lived by the rule of law and respect for others ... they'd be a lot more successful than they are.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The Palestinians receive far more aid per capita from foreign governments than Israel ever has.

Israel became prosperous the way every other country has become prosperous ... by living under the rule of law themselves ... and applying that same rule of law to their foreign guests.

Prosperity begins with safety and freedom ... and you can't have either if your only thought ... your obsession ... is to kill everyone who disagrees with you.

The Palestinians are economically poor because they're morally bankrupt.

Disagree!
That's the same line of thinking as American whites used against Native Americans.
So what? You're already living here, but WE want it. WE'LL put a little land aside for you to live on....take it or leave it.
If you don't like it, we'll kill all the buffalo that you depend on for sustinace.
Go to the reservation, NOW!
If you resist, we'll kill you. (did).

So the British give over Palestine so there could be a Zionist state under UN protection in 1948. Hey! Palistinians, get out of here! It's ours now. God gave it to us (duh! I thought the British did under UN protection...play the guilt for what Hitler did to you...and then you do the exact same thing to the people you dispossess).

Go to you're Gaza strip and West Bank. We have US backing and funding.
The US evens supplies us with F-16's. Tanks too!
If you resist, we'll kill you. (did)

Can anyone blame Native Americans or Palestinians for having a dim view of events that have effected their lives?

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Same story, again.
Force people off their land and expect them to negotiate?
I don't think so.

The Palestinians and Israelis both are extremely annoying. Our government should take care of its own before helping out these groups. I wouldn't trust either one of them with anything. They have been fighting forever and will continue to fight forever. I am tired of giving them my tax dollar to kill each other.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by boldruler

The Palestinians and Israelis both are extremely annoying. Our government should take care of its own before helping out these groups. I wouldn't trust either one of them with anything. They have been fighting forever and will continue to fight forever. I am tired of giving them my tax dollar to kill each other.

... But you still haven't given me any hard numbers on my earlier question?

And one can also argue that Switzerland does well because of the high tax rate its citizens pay. Which, by the way, is not necessarily a bad thing. I love how many a wistful conservative-minded American will recall the 1950's as an idyllic time in the US... but fail to recall that the tax rate was also much more progressive-- up to 90 percent for the highest incomes, I believe. Which meant more money for education, GI bills, highways, etc. I don't think it's all due to chocolate (though lord knows I eat enough of it to support Switzerland all by myself)! Hee hee.

[GenuineRisk]

... and this has been a really interesting discussion, guys! This board is sooo much better than the ESPN one was... I get better racing education in the Paddock and more fun debates in the Off-Topic...

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

... But you still haven't given me any hard numbers on my earlier question?

And one can also argue that Switzerland does well because of the high tax rate its citizens pay. Which, by the way, is not necessarily a bad thing. I love how many a wistful conservative-minded American will recall the 1950's as an idyllic time in the US... but fail to recall that the tax rate was also much more progressive-- up to 90 percent for the highest incomes, I believe. Which meant more money for education, GI bills, highways, etc. I don't think it's all due to chocolate (though lord knows I eat enough of it to support Switzerland all by myself)! Hee hee.

Screw Switzerland. Half the worlds criminals live there. That guy Marc Rich who ran off without paying his taxes gets haven there along with all the other oil/arms dealer criminals.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

... But you still haven't given me any hard numbers on my earlier question?

And one can also argue that Switzerland does well because of the high tax rate its citizens pay. Which, by the way, is not necessarily a bad thing. I love how many a wistful conservative-minded American will recall the 1950's as an idyllic time in the US... but fail to recall that the tax rate was also much more progressive-- up to 90 percent for the highest incomes, I believe. Which meant more money for education, GI bills, highways, etc. I don't think it's all due to chocolate (though lord knows I eat enough of it to support Switzerland all by myself)! Hee hee.

You're completely misinformed about Switzerland.

The Wall Street Journal's Index of Economic Freedom ... the most authoritative voice on the subject ... has consistently rated Switzerland among the ten most free economies in the world ... out of 180 countries being rated.

Switzerland is a model of low-tax, low-regulation, free-market capitalism ... which accounts for it's substantial prosperity.

And honestly ... if you can be intellectually honest ... doesn't it amaze you that Switzerland is synonymous with chocolate ... a tropical product? Have you ever stopped to think of why that's possible ... and why people like the Palestinians don't attempt to replicate Switzerland's lawfulness, honesty, integrity, and tolerance?

Switzerland is a home for criminals. More money is laudered there than anywhere in the world. Case closed.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're completely misinformed about Switzerland.



Switzerland is a model of low-tax, low-regulation, free-market capitalism ... which accounts for it's substantial prosperity.

yes prosperity. Yassir Arafats billions are in some account in good ole Switzerland. Low-regulation you bet your bippy... Best place in the world to hide illegally made money.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're completely misinformed about Switzerland.

The Wall Street Journal's Index of Economic Freedom ... the most authoritative voice on the subject ... has consistently rated Switzerland among the ten most free economies in the world ... out of 180 countries being rated.

Switzerland is a model of low-tax, low-regulation, free-market capitalism ... which accounts for it's substantial prosperity.

And honestly ... if you can be intellectually honest ... doesn't it amaze you that Switzerland is synonymous with chocolate ... a tropical product? Have you ever stopped to think of why that's possible ... and why people like the Palestinians don't attempt to replicate Switzerland's lawfulness, honesty, integrity, and tolerance?

You're right and I'm wrong on the tax thing. And props to them for taxing investment income at the same rate as earned icome!

But honestly, I associate them more with watches than chocolate.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Disagree!

So the British give over Palestine so there could be a Zionist state under UN protection in 1948. Hey! Palistinians, get out of here! It's ours now.

In the 5th Century AD ... Aquileia ... located where the east coast of the Italian peninsula meets the mainland ... was the second largest port in the Roman Empire ... second only to Ostia, the port of Rome.

But then the Huns came swooping out of the Asian steppes ... plundering, pillaging, and murdering everyone before them. The Aquileians fled in alarm out into the swamps ... the only place where the horses of the Huns couldn't follow them.

They were chased from their homes ... and isolated on mosquito-ridden islets in the middle of the swamps, marshes, and lagoons of the Adriatic Sea. They made the best of this dreadful situation ... turning to the sea for sustenance and economic opportunity.

But soon the world stood in awe of these isolated, battered refugees from Aquileia ... as they built their new home ... a city they called Venezia ... known to us as Venice.

If the Aquileians could build the Venetian Empire ... the most powerful and prosperous society of the late Middle Ages and the Rinascente ... and still the most beautiful city in the world ... after being chased into the malarial swamps of the Adriatic ... why can't the Palestinians build a successful society in their new homeland ... on a beautiful stretch of the sun-lapped shores of the Mediterranean?

Stop making excuses for these hate-filled, murderous people ... because ...

... because in doing so ... it only reveals your deep hatred of the Jewish people.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

In the 5th Century AD ... Aquileia ... located where the east coast of the Italian peninsula meets the mainland ... was the second largest port in the Roman Empire ... second only to Ostia, the port of Rome.

But then the Huns came swooping out of the Asian steppes ... plundering, pillaging, and murdering everyone before them. The Aquileians fled in alarm out into the swamps ... the only place where the horses of the Huns couldn't follow them.

They were chased from their homes ... and isolated on mosquito-ridden islets in the middle of the swamps, marshes, and lagoons of the Adriatic Sea. They made the best of this dreadful situation ... turning to the sea for sustenance and economic opportunity.

But soon the world stood in awe of these isolated, battered refugees from Aquileia ... as they built their new home ... a city they called Venezia ... known to us as Venice.

If the Aquileians could build the Venetian Empire ... the most powerful and prosperous society of the late Middle Ages and the Rinascente ... and still the most beautiful city in the world ... after being chased into the malarial swamps of the Adriatic ... why can't the Palestinians build a successful society in their new homeland ... on a beautiful stretch of the sun-lapped shores of the Mediterranean?

Stop making excuses for these hate-filled, murderous people ... because ...

... because in doing so ... it only reveals your deep hatred of the Jewish people.

Man, you got me wrong.
I like Jewish people, some of my best friends.
btw...the reason that the Venetians became so successful was that they cut a deal to trade with the Muslims despite Constantine's edict.
We know how that worked out.
Greek fire and all...

I really hate no one.
Peace.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

In the 5th Century AD ... Aquileia ... located where the east coast of the Italian peninsula meets the mainland ... was the second largest port in the Roman Empire ... second only to Ostia, the port of Rome.

But then the Huns came swooping out of the Asian steppes ... plundering, pillaging, and murdering everyone before them. The Aquileians fled in alarm out into the swamps ... the only place where the horses of the Huns couldn't follow them.

They were chased from their homes ... and isolated on mosquito-ridden islets in the middle of the swamps, marshes, and lagoons of the Adriatic Sea. They made the best of this dreadful situation ... turning to the sea for sustenance and economic opportunity.

But soon the world stood in awe of these isolated, battered refugees from Aquileia ... as they built their new home ... a city they called Venezia ... known to us as Venice.

If the Aquileians could build the Venetian Empire ... the most powerful and prosperous society of the late Middle Ages and the Rinascente ... and still the most beautiful city in the world ... after being chased into the malarial swamps of the Adriatic ... why can't the Palestinians build a successful society in their new homeland ... on a beautiful stretch of the sun-lapped shores of the Mediterranean?

Stop making excuses for these hate-filled, murderous people ... because ...

... because in doing so ... it only reveals your deep hatred of the Jewish people.

i wonder how much dialogue is stifled because people don't want to be accused of 'hating' someone they disagree with....how much of a free pass does israel get because of just what you finished your post with? no one wants to be accused of hating, so how much silence is there? israel should always be allowed to do whatever it wants, because any disagreement means only one thing?? anti-semitism? that's ridiculous. how britain, the us, or anyone else thought that giving the land to israel 50-some years ago would actually work is beyond me. how much of the extreme hate directed towards the U.S. by arab countries is due to our support of israel??? a ton of it.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i wonder how much dialogue is stifled because people don't how britain, the us, or anyone else thought that giving the land to israel 50-some years ago would actually work is beyond me. how much of the extreme hate directed towards the U.S. by arab countries is due to our support of israel??? a ton of it.

The land wasn't "given" to Israel ... the land WAS Israel.

And speaking of occupation ... don't Arabs belong in Arabia ... and aren't all the Arabs in north Africa, the Levant, and Mesopotamia there because they conquered those lands with bloody swords?

When are the Arabs going to return to their homeland in Arabia ... and end the occupation of all the lands they brutally conquered?