Question, About the yellow flag?

[MaTH716]

I am a casual Nascar fan. I enjoy watching it. I know most of the drivers and teams and I don't watch it for the crashes. Can someone explain why the yellow flag did not come out right away on the final lap of the 500. If the rule is that once there is a wreck, the field freezes then what happened? Is that even the rule? Because if it is, how can they change it on the fly of the biggest race of the year? Or is it like one of those NHL rules, where a trip isn't a trip with 2:00 minutes left in overtime? Personally I liked it the way it was, when they did race back to the line. Can someone clear this up to me.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I am a casual Nascar fan. I enjoy watching it. I know most of the drivers and teams and I don't watch it for the crashes. Can someone explain why the yellow flag did not come out right away on the final lap of the 500. If the rule is that once there is a wreck, the field freezes then what happened? Is that even the rule? Because if it is, how can they change it on the fly of the biggest race of the year? Or is it like one of those NHL rules, where a trip isn't a trip with 2:00 minutes left in overtime? Personally I liked it the way it was, when they did race back to the line. Can someone clear this up to me.

Well, in this particular instance, the yellow flag wasn't dropped because they were coming out of turn 4 on the last lap when the crash happened. Since the accident was happening BEHIND the two leaders, NASCAR decided to let them race back to the line (like they used to.) Basically, NASCAR enjoys making and changing rules at their every whim. They really could care less what anyone else thinks. (Sorry... a bit bitter at NASCAR right now.) I agree with you that they should be allowed to race back to the line, and because of that, Harvick was the right winner, BUT, if NASCAR plans on making rules, they need to stick with them. This garbage of changing them whenever they feel like it has got to stop.

By the way, IF the caution flag would have been thrown and the field was frozen, THIS is what would have happened:



I can understand why Mark Martin fans are upset.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Well, in this particular instance, the yellow flag wasn't dropped because they were coming out of turn 4 on the last lap when the crash happened. Since the accident was happening BEHIND the two leaders, NASCAR decided to let them race back to the line (like they used to.) Basically, NASCAR enjoys making and changing rules at their every whim. They really could care less what anyone else thinks. (Sorry... a bit bitter at NASCAR right now.) I agree with you that they should be allowed to race back to the line, and because of that, Harvick was the right winner, BUT, if NASCAR plans on making rules, they need to stick with them. This garbage of changing them whenever they feel like it has got to stop.

By the way, IF the caution flag would have been thrown and the field was frozen, THIS is what would have happened:



I can understand why Mark Martin fans are upset.

its bullsh*t kiddo...and you know it....that photo you showed should have been the right results.

I like Happy...I do...seems like a good kid...but Nascar has gotten too big for its britches....

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by T3B

its bullsh*t kiddo...and you know it....that photo you showed should have been the right results.

I like Happy...I do...seems like a good kid...but Nascar has gotten too big for its britches....

It depends on what you're used to, hun... in the old days, NASCAR would let them run to the line regardless of what kind of caution there was. NOW, you've got them making and changing rules left and right, and it leaves a lot of fans confused. From what I understand, NASCAR decided they'd throw the yellow when Clint's car started rolling. That was about 5 seconds too late for Mark. It sucks that Mark didn't win, but what sucks even more is that Matt Kenseth (a former teammate) decided to leave Mark hanging out to dry by drafting with Happy instead of Mark. To me, that is BULLSHIAT.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It depends on what you're used to, hun... in the old days, NASCAR would let them run to the line regardless of what kind of caution there was. NOW, you've got them making and changing rules left and right, and it leaves a lot of fans confused. From what I understand, NASCAR decided they'd throw the yellow when Clint's car started rolling. That was about 5 seconds too late for Mark. It sucks that Mark didn't win, but what sucks even more is that Matt Kenseth (a former teammate) decided to leave Mark hanging out to dry by drafting with Happy instead of Mark. To me, that is BULLSHIAT.

again....Nascar has gotten too big for its britches....cant please everyone. Make rules and stick to them....

[Danzig]

i think nascar stinks like a rotten egg these days. arbitrarily make rules, and then use them when they see fit, and ignore them on a whim...accuse some of cheating, throw folks out, and then let others who don't pass exam keep a win and lose zero points. it's ridiculous! this is professional racing??

if the rule states that there is a caution immediately and no racing to the line, that's what they should have done. it should not be-we throw it if we want, when we want, depending on who's in front or what track it is-well, at least that way they'd be honest!! it's bs.
i guess if martin was driving for childress, they'd have thrown the yellow. and if gordon wasn't gordon, he'd have gotten more than starting 42nd for not passing inspection.

[2MinsToPost]

This will be my one chance in a million to provide some insight that no one else may be able to from my background. I was Chief of Timing and Scoring with ASA (American Speed Association) for the whole 2001 season and part of 2002. Now, I am not versed on NASCAR's Timing and Scoring rules like I was with my employer's at the time; however, I know enough about what happened to possibly clear up some of the confusion. NASCAR made the right call, no question bout it. Here is why.

I am going to keep this as simple as possible. Each car is fitted with a device called a transponder. It is mounted behind the driver on the roll bar, in the same location on each vehicle. Now, every track that NASCAR competes on has scoring loops installed at various points on the track. I would guess, don't know, that Daytona has them installed about every 250 yards or so. All a scoring loop is is a wire installed in a 1/8" to 1/4" cut in the track, usually 1" deep in the surface. When the transponder crosses over that wire, it emits a signal and then the signal hits the wire and is sent to the computer in the tower, hence a car # and time comes up as well as that cars position on the track. Just a little lesson for those that wanted to know.

Long story short, as the leaders made the turn for home off of turn 4, you can pretty much throw out the rulebook in this instance cause it is the Race Directors call, decision. The drivers safety and the ability to put the cars back on the track under racing situations properly lined up are crucial. This would have been almost impossible given the location of the accident in relation to the leaders and the final scoring loop, which of course is at the start finish line. Had this accident occured in turn 3 in between turns 3 and 4 I am certain the Race Director would have thrown the yellow, the reason is that the leaders would still have been in the turn and would not have a clear view of the start finish line.

Again, it is the Race Directors call at that time. It is a split second decision that had to be made and the correct one was. Both Mark Martin and Kevin Harvick race cars for a living. If Mark Martin eased on the gas, shame on him. I would venture a guess that his spotter said into his ear, crash crash so Mark thought yellow yellow. Should have stayed in the gas, clear track ahead.

[Danzig]

yeah,i know they have those on the track-whoever was in the lead at the last timer would have won had the yellow been thrown immediately.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

This will be my one chance in a million to provide some insight that no one else may be able to from my background. I was Chief of Timing and Scoring with ASA (American Speed Association) for the whole 2001 season and part of 2002. Now, I am not versed on NASCAR's Timing and Scoring rules like I was with my employer's at the time; however, I know enough about what happened to possibly clear up some of the confusion. NASCAR made the right call, no question bout it. Here is why.

I am going to keep this as simple as possible. Each car is fitted with a device called a transponder. It is mounted behind the driver on the roll bar, in the same location on each vehicle. Now, every track that NASCAR competes on has scoring loops installed at various points on the track. I would guess, don't know, that Daytona has them installed about every 250 yards or so. All a scoring loop is is a wire installed in a 1/8" to 1/4" cut in the track, usually 1" deep in the surface. When the transponder crosses over that wire, it emits a signal and then the signal hits the wire and is sent to the computer in the tower, hence a car # and time comes up as well as that cars position on the track. Just a little lesson for those that wanted to know.

Long story short, as the leaders made the turn for home off of turn 4, you can pretty much throw out the rulebook in this instance cause it is the Race Directors call, decision. The drivers safety and the ability to put the cars back on the track under racing situations properly lined up are crucial. This would have been almost impossible given the location of the accident in relation to the leaders and the final scoring loop, which of course is at the start finish line. Had this accident occured in turn 3 in between turns 3 and 4 I am certain the Race Director would have thrown the yellow, the reason is that the leaders would still have been in the turn and would not have a clear view of the start finish line.

Again, it is the Race Directors call at that time. It is a split second decision that had to be made and the correct one was. Both Mark Martin and Kevin Harvick race cars for a living. If Mark Martin eased on the gas, shame on him. I would venture a guess that his spotter said into his ear, crash crash so Mark thought yellow yellow. Should have stayed in the gas, clear track ahead.

Curt, I agree with your assessment above, but my confusion lies in the fact that they threw the caution flag once Clint's car started rolling. Thoughts on that?

[2MinsToPost]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Curt, I agree with your assessment above, but my confusion lies in the fact that they threw the caution flag once Clint's car started rolling. Thoughts on that?

My guess is the Race Director decided that he was in unusual harm being that the car was on its roof and if he were to be subjected to impact on the drivers side things could have been bad. That also may be an agreement that the drivers and Race Director made in a meeting, that if their is a car upside down we will throw the yellow so everyone can be aware of the dangerous situation involving the car / driver.

Also, I just wanted to clear up my unusually long rambling post. It narrows down to the fact that the 2 cars battling for the lead had a clear view of the start finish line and a clear track ahead. I am certain that played into the Race Director's decision.

I shared an office when I worked for ASA with the current Director of Tech in the Busch Series. I am going to fire him an email and see if he can send any info that may enlighten us as to what happened in the tower. Crap its Thursday, so he is probably on the road, oh well lets see if he responds.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

My guess is the Race Director decided that he was in unusual harm being that the car was on its roof and if he were to be subjected to impact on the drivers side things could have been bad. That also may be an agreement that the drivers and Race Director made in a meeting, that if their is a car upside down we will throw the yellow so everyone can be aware of the dangerous situation involving the car / driver.

Also, I just wanted to clear up my unusually long rambling post. It narrows down to the fact that the 2 cars battling for the lead had a clear view of the start finish line and a clear track ahead. I am certain that played into the Race Director's decision.

I shared an office when I worked for ASA with the current Director of Tech in the Busch Series. I am going to fire him an email and see if he can send any info that may enlighten us as to what happened in the tower. Crap its Thursday, so he is probably on the road, oh well lets see if he responds.

But for me it comes down to a rule is a rule. Nascar is so strict with it's enforcement of rules violations, that it's unfathomable to me that Nascar can bend them when they want. Look at things like cars being 1/4 of an inch to low or goinng down pit row at 57 miles per hour, are infractions that are treated with stiff penalties. So for them to bend the rule in the super bowl of racing leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Would the yellow have come out if this was the Food City 500?

[2MinsToPost]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

But for me it comes down to a rule is a rule. Nascar is so strict with it's enforcement of rules violations, that it's unfathomable to me that Nascar can bend them when they want. Look at things like cars being 1/4 of an inch to low or goinng down pit row at 57 miles per hour, are infractions that are treated with stiff penalties. So for them to bend the rule in the super bowl of racing leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Would the yellow have come out if this was the Food City 500?

Their is huge difference between a rules violation going thru tech. The reality is this, when the cars are on the track peoples lives are in danger every second and that in my opinion played a factor in the Race Director's decision.

I can tell you for a fact that decisions have to be made every single weekend in NASCAR that people will never know about. Those decisions are made behind closed doors, some of them are correct and with the best interest in mind and some are made not in the best interest of the parties involved. Untill you have been involved in a situation similar to what happened Sunday you just don't know how important it is to be able to do what is right.

Again, I was Chief of Timing and Scoring for ASA back in 2001 and part of 2002. I speak from experience and worked with a couple drivers and their respective teams who moved on to NASCAR and are racing their currently. Things happen during the race that have to be taken for their situation, and decisions have to made with safety being number 1.

When the green flag drops this is how things go. The safety of everyone involved is number 1. The accuracy of where each respective car is number 2. In this situation, both were compromised. The Race Director made the right decision.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

Their is huge difference between a rules violation going thru tech. The reality is this, when the cars are on the track peoples lives are in danger every second and that in my opinion played a factor in the Race Director's decision.

I can tell you for a fact that decisions have to be made every single weekend in NASCAR that people will never know about. Those decisions are made behind closed doors, some of them are correct and with the best interest in mind and some are made not in the best interest of the parties involved. Untill you have been involved in a situation similar to what happened Sunday you just don't know how important it is to be able to do what is right.

Again, I was Chief of Timing and Scoring for ASA back in 2001 and part of 2002. I speak from experience and worked with a couple drivers and their respective teams who moved on to NASCAR and are racing their currently. Things happen during the race that have to be taken for their situation, and decisions have to made with safety being number 1.

When the green flag drops this is how things go. The safety of everyone involved is number 1. The accuracy of where each respective car is number 2. In this situation, both were compromised. The Race Director made the right decision.

Curt,
I agree completely with what you said. Though I would have liked to see Mark Martin get this win before he retires, they were ahead of the crashes.
That last lap will remain in my memory forever. That's racing.
It was heart stopping to see the car come over the line on its roof.
It's how things go.
Ya go out with a green, ya take your best shot.
When all is said and done, there's only one winner.
Very good that nobody got killed.
There will be many more races.
And, yes, NASCAR needs to be consistant with the rules.
Safety first. After that, everyone takes their chances.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

Their is huge difference between a rules violation going thru tech. The reality is this, when the cars are on the track peoples lives are in danger every second and that in my opinion played a factor in the Race Director's decision.

I can tell you for a fact that decisions have to be made every single weekend in NASCAR that people will never know about. Those decisions are made behind closed doors, some of them are correct and with the best interest in mind and some are made not in the best interest of the parties involved. Untill you have been involved in a situation similar to what happened Sunday you just don't know how important it is to be able to do what is right.

Again, I was Chief of Timing and Scoring for ASA back in 2001 and part of 2002. I speak from experience and worked with a couple drivers and their respective teams who moved on to NASCAR and are racing their currently. Things happen during the race that have to be taken for their situation, and decisions have to made with safety being number 1.

When the green flag drops this is how things go. The safety of everyone involved is number 1. The accuracy of where each respective car is number 2. In this situation, both were compromised. The Race Director made the right decision.

First of all I do appreciate your insight on this subject. I am not sure what the right answer is. The point I was trying to make is that Nascar is so strict by the book in every aspect of the sport, that I didn't think there was any room for a "judgement call". Also if safety is the #1 issue how could the yellow not come out immediatley. Beacuse the wreck happened in the front of almost a full field and most of them were still on the lead lap all racing to the finish. So with no yellow you have the majority of the field racing back to the line through a wreck. The way I see it is that everyone involved or behind the wreck, had a safety issue because the yellow didn't come out right away. Like I said in an earlier post, I liked it when they DID race back to the line. I just do not think you could have it both ways.

[bugsoup]

no nascar changes its rulings all the time. on friday nights trk. race johnny benson went below the yellow line and past a trk to improve his position. nascar says a race car can not go below the yellow line its against there rules, and if you do you will be penelized. benson was not.
also the rule is to be read if there is a wreck the yellow flag will be waved. and field frozen. sometimes they do it and this last time was the first time in about 3 years that i seen them not throw the flag. some people say it was because it was the last lap. but races over the last few years it did not matter it was last lap. they froze the field.