Best 2 year old ever POLL!!!

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by POINTGIVEN1985

favorite tricks record as a 2 yr old will never be matched... this post says best 2 yr old. so if its best 2 yr old it has to be him, 2 yr olds these days see the track 5 times tops, thats the good 2 yr olds, most trainers point to the derby, if you see a real good 2 yr old run more then 5 times as a juvenile its rare.

There are any number of horses who won more races, and beat demonstrably better horses in the process, as 2YOs. If you have only been in the sport for a few years, Favorite Trick's campaign stands out - rather like a dim star against a black sky. If you had ever seen a starry night, you'd know that Favorite Trick's accomplishments appear more ordinary in comparison.

The trends you're talking about are not very old and there are plenty of us on this board (who are not fossils) who remember when it was perfectly ordinary for high-class stakes 2YOs to run much more than they do in the 21st century. There are other 2YO champions of the 1990s who ran seven or eight times; that was common in the 1980s and par for the course (or even considered a light campaign) for many decades before that. The pendulum could swing again.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

There are any number of horses who won more races, and beat demonstrably better horses in the process, as 2YOs. If you have only been in the sport for a few years, Favorite Trick's campaign stands out - rather like a dim star against a black sky. If you had ever seen a starry night, you'd know that Favorite Trick's accomplishments appear more ordinary in comparison.

The trends you're talking about are not very old and there are plenty of us on this board (who are not fossils) who remember when it was perfectly ordinary for high-class stakes 2YOs to run much more than they do in the 21st century. There are other 2YO champions of the 1990s who ran seven or eight times; that was common in the 1980s and par for the course (or even considered a light campaign) for many decades before that. The pendulum could swing again.

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

[Thunder Gulch]

Spectacular Bid's only competion was the clocker's watch, which he stopped in record time over and over again.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

Isn't she amazing?!

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Isn't she amazing?!

I'm sure "Phalaris" will not mind some expansion on her identity, as anyone can go to her website (http://www.phalarisproject.com) and see who she is instantly...

Paula Welch Prather is one of the industry's top historical authorities.. period. Her work keeping the American Racing Manual going for DRF is a vitally important contribution to the recording of the game's history, as are so many of her projects and contributions... It's a real pleasure to have her here and contributing when she has time...

Her Bio:

Driven by a desire to be involved in the racing industry, Paula Welch Prather began her career at the Phoenix office of the Daily Racing Form. Starting as a copy editor in 1993, she became the Special Projects Editor in 1996 and served as the de facto librarian and researcher for the venerable publication. Instrumental in producing the Graded Stakes Yearbook from 1995 through 1998, she created the over 16,000 running lines that would appear in the 2000 DRF Press book Champions, a project that was five years in the making.

Paula stayed behind in her home town of Phoenix when the DRF moved to New York, but in late 2003, an opportunity arose for her to join forces once again with the Daily Racing Form to serve as editor of the American Racing Manual. She still proudly serves as the editor of that annual publication.

Paula has served as the US correspondent for the New Zealand Bloodhorse since 1999 and is serving the same role for its new sister publication, the Irish Bloodhorse, which began publication in late 2005. She began helping with the compilation of the bi-monthly magazine of the Arizona Thoroughbred Breeders Association in 2002.

Outside of the racing industry, Paula worked for five years at the Phoenix office of Ticketmaster, where she served in a variety of roles including client services and quality assurance. Given an opportunity to return to an equine publication in 2005, she joined the staff of the Scottsdale, Arizona-based Saddlebred magazine The National Horseman in the role of traffic coordinator.

In the spring of 2006, Paula and her husband, Barry, moved to New Mexico, a relocation which offered more physical accommodation for the library and an opportunity to be available for full-time work in the racing industry.

A December 1992 graduate of the Race Track Industry Program at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Paula is a member of Gamma Sigma Delta, the honor society of the college of agriculture. Prior to transferring to the University of Arizona in order to take part in the RTIP, she completed three years of work in journalism at Arizona State University.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

I'm glad to see you say that. I found just about every one of Phalaris's posts at ESPN to be interesting and well-written. Even when being provocative, she was able to put forth her ideas logically, without raising the volume level of a discussion. I hope she posts here more often.

--Dunbar

[MisterB]

Favorite Trick showed that the horse makes the pedigree. Not the pedigree makes the horse. Unlike Big Red, this horse was small, and a speed ball. Had to have more guts to keep the ball rolling. Only Native Dancer had a better record winning 9 of 9 as a juvenile . Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

Records are only records. Even though Trick amazed many, he was no Big red

[avance2000]

Originally Posted by MisterB

Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

who knows who is better between native dancer and favorite trick? well.......me for one. the answer is native dancer.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by avance2000

who knows who is better between native dancer and favorite trick? well.......me for one. the answer is native dancer.

Only 50 years between them

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MisterB

Favorite Trick showed that the horse makes the pedigree. Not the pedigree makes the horse. Unlike Big Red, this horse was small, and a speed ball. Had to have more guts to keep the ball rolling. Only Native Dancer had a better record winning 9 of 9 as a juvenile . Since they can never compete, who knows who is better.

Records are only records. Even though Trick amazed many, he was no Big red

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

Agreed

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you have a list that doesn't have Native Dancer in the top 2 of all time great 2 year olds then you need to familiarize your self with the Grey Ghost.

I said top 2 because he may not have been the best but he certainly shouldn't be worse than 2nd.

I guess Man o war would have to be considered also.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

No, it was 1956---the birth year of First Landing, Tomy Lee, Sword Dancer, Royal Orbit , etc ... Colin's grandpa Domino was also a stellar 2. A recent two, outstanding against her own was Meadow Star. The Bid also had a busy and excellent year at two .

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only once twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

Thanks for the info!!

[Sightseek]

Thank you very much for addressing my questions

[horseofcourse]

Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

Of course, he isn't the best 2 yr old ever...but in all honesty, I would have no trouble with anyone placing him on a top 20 of all time juvy list. He certainly needs to be in this discussion of all time best 2 yr olds even if not the ultimate number 1.