BC Stunner: 2 days, 3 new races..

[blackthroatedwind]

The whole idea is basically a poor one....but it's the BC....the enemy of major league racing...... so why would it be a good idea?

Starting from the top....the mile. This will dilute the Classic ( not seriously ) and the Sprint in two detrimental ways. One, it will take away somewhat interesting contenders and two it will open the sprint up to more useless vermin that, in theory, doesn't belong in a championship race.

Now, the Filly and Mare sprint. OK, I understand one could argue they sort of " deserve " their own race...however.....fillies and mares have fared VERY well in the BC Sprint over the years and so in reality this race will further rob the BC Sprint of its overall quality.

Now, the 2YO turf race.....I'm sorry, what exactly is the US program that leads up to this race? Some turf maiden races seems to be about it. So this is great, we now have a BC race that caters to US horses that are too slow to run on dirt and Euros. OK, fine, I will personally enjoy this race and maybe the Euros do sort of deserve a race of their own, but don't try and fool me that this was a race that demanded to be run. I like the $250K filly version of this race they are already running and see no reason they shouldn't have run the same purse for the boys. Labeling it a " BC " race does not make any of the contestants better or more important horses.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The whole idea is basically a poor one....but it's the BC....the enemy of major league racing...... so why would it be a good idea?

Starting from the top....the mile. This will dilute the Classic ( not seriously ) and the Sprint in two detrimental ways. One, it will take away somewhat interesting contenders and two it will open the sprint up to more useless vermin that, in theory, doesn't belong in a championship race.

Now, the Filly and Mare sprint. OK, I understand one could argue they sort of " deserve " their own race...however.....fillies and mares have fared VERY well in the BC Sprint over the years and so in reality this race will further rob the BC Sprint of its overall quality.

Now, the 2YO turf race.....I'm sorry, what exactly is the US program that leads up to this race? Some turf maiden races seems to be about it. So this is great, we now have a BC race that caters to US horses that are too slow to run on dirt and Euros. OK, fine, I will personally enjoy this race and maybe the Euros do sort of deserve a race of their own, but don't try and fool me that this was a race that demanded to be run. I like the $250K filly version of this race they are already running and see no reason they shouldn't have run the same purse for the boys. Labeling it a " BC " race does not make any of the contestants better or more important horses.

Not to be negative, but I was thinking this too. And of course it is the Breeder's Cup and so many breeders are breeding for speed rather than staminia they might as well continue to support this.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Not to be negative, but I was thinking this too. And of course it is the Breeder's Cup and so many breeders are breeding for speed rather than staminia they might as well continue to support this.

I think you will see 3 or 4 horses with distance limitations that have no real shot in the Classic go in the Mile. You will see 3 or 4 from the Sprint that the distance is too short for them go in the Mile. And you'll see 3 or 4 like Wanderin Boy, Sir Greeley, and a few Cigar Mile horses that wouldn't run in the BC otherwise. I don't think it will dilute anything too much and will add another intriguing race to the program.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think you will see 3 or 4 horses with distance limitations that have no real shot in the Classic go in the Mile. You will see 3 or 4 from the Sprint that the distance is too short for them go in the Mile. And you'll see 3 or 4 like Wanderin Boy, Sir Greeley, and a few Cigar Mile horses that wouldn't run in the BC otherwise. I don't think it will dilute anything too much and will add another intriguing race to the program.

Now we know why you're excited for this.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Now we know why you're excited for this.

That's just an added bonus!

[SniperSB23]

I just saw that the FM Sprint is only 6 furlongs for this year and will be 7 furlongs in the future. Interesting. I guess some 6 furlong female sprinters will have to choose between running past their best distance or running with the boys.

I cant to see what betting exotics they will come with. They will prob have something like the Spint Double. Or maybe a two day pick 6 wager. Who knows, endless possibilites. At least they are trying to be innovative.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Now, the 2YO turf race.....I'm sorry, what exactly is the US program that leads up to this race? Some turf maiden races seems to be about it. So this is great, we now have a BC race that caters to US horses that are too slow to run on dirt and Euros. OK, fine, I will personally enjoy this race and maybe the Euros do sort of deserve a race of their own, but don't try and fool me that this was a race that demanded to be run. I like the $250K filly version of this race they are already running and see no reason they shouldn't have run the same purse for the boys. Labeling it a " BC " race does not make any of the contestants better or more important horses.

I think we will see this lead to increased focus on 2yo turf racing. More stakes will crop up prior to the BC and the few that do exist will move up to graded status as they become important preps for the Juvenile Turf. It will encourage more trainers to try their 2yos on the turf and give a name to the American turf horses that otherwise go unnoticed until June or July of their 3yo season. And of course getting some top Euros to come over will be fun. The first couple years will be rocky but I think in a couple years there will be a very different attitude towards 2yo turf racing (especially if a BC Juvenile Turf winner wins the Derby before a BC Juvenile winner).

[NTamm1215]

BTW,

I agree with all of your points quite well and I think in a way the BC Committee might not have taken all of those thoughts into consideration.

The Juvenile Turf race for example, if any of you bet either the Pilgrim or Miss Grillo on closing weekend at Belmont you'd know that the fields were pretty lackluster. Almost all the horses had just broken their maidens and the races were somewhat inscrutable. It wasn't until a race like the Laurel Futurity in late November that these 2 YOs developed some kind of turf "form." Now, I'm assuming NYRA, SoCal, and Kentucky will move up the pace with which they let 2YOs run on the grass. Normally you don't see a 2YO grasser at Belmont in the spring longer than 6 furlongs, I guess we're gonna have to see those at a mile, that way at Saratoga you can continue it to 1 1/16 so that there's some build up to the race.

The Mile race to me would be incredible if every BC host track could accomodate a one-turn mile. Unfortunately, of the regular host tracks the only ones that can are Belmont and Churchill. Arlington and Gulfstream can also, but I don't think either can be considered regular host tracks right now. So we get a bargain at a mile and 70 this year.

I'm trying to think about who would have been in some of these races this year if they had had them and the F&M Sprint is a real question mark. I come up with Malibu Mint, Dubai Escapade, everyone from the First Flight on the same day at Aqueduct, all in all what would seem like an average field.

I guess I like change, but personally I get frustrated with the selection of host tracks (and I worked at Lone Star in 2004) because the rotation in my opinion should just be Belmont, Churchill, SA. Tracks where the distances all work, except of course this new mile race at SA, but also where the biggest races are run all year and where the crowds can fit. I went to Monmouth for the first time this year and while I liked it, all I can say is good luck to anyone who's gonna brave the late October Jersey shore weather in that obviously summertime racetrack.

Sorry for the rambling and welcome to the board for me!

NT

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The whole idea is basically a poor one....but it's the BC....the enemy of major league racing...... so why would it be a good idea?

Starting from the top....the mile. This will dilute the Classic ( not seriously ) and the Sprint in two detrimental ways. One, it will take away somewhat interesting contenders and two it will open the sprint up to more useless vermin that, in theory, doesn't belong in a championship race.

Now, the Filly and Mare sprint. OK, I understand one could argue they sort of " deserve " their own race...however.....fillies and mares have fared VERY well in the BC Sprint over the years and so in reality this race will further rob the BC Sprint of its overall quality.

Now, the 2YO turf race.....I'm sorry, what exactly is the US program that leads up to this race? Some turf maiden races seems to be about it. So this is great, we now have a BC race that caters to US horses that are too slow to run on dirt and Euros. OK, fine, I will personally enjoy this race and maybe the Euros do sort of deserve a race of their own, but don't try and fool me that this was a race that demanded to be run. I like the $250K filly version of this race they are already running and see no reason they shouldn't have run the same purse for the boys. Labeling it a " BC " race does not make any of the contestants better or more important horses.

I don't think it's a bad idea. If they can get more full fields and competitive races, it's a good idea to me.

The dirt mile maybe steals a few interesting contenders from the Sprint, but overall my guess these are different from the Classic. In this year's classic, who would have gone in the Mile instead?

The F&M Sprint is the best of the 3. Sure, fillies & mares HAVE done well in the past in the Sprint, but when was the last winner? It's been 5 years since Xtra Heat almost got it done. There's been an average of what, 1 female starter per year?

The 2YO turf race is less interesting for US horses, as most of them will be coming in off a maiden win and that's about it. There's what, 2-3 grass stakes for 2YO's before October 1st?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by philcski

The 2YO turf race is less interesting for US horses, as most of them will be coming in off a maiden win and that's about it. There's what, 2-3 grass stakes for 2YO's before October 1st?

I guarantee once the BC Juvenile Turf exists for a couple years that will no longer be the case. There will be more demand to card 2yo turf racing and the stakes races that already exist will likely see purse increases to get graded status.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I guarantee once the BC Juvenile Turf exists for a couple years that will no longer be the case. There will be more demand to card 2yo turf racing and the stakes races that already exist will likely see purse increases to get graded status.

I think there should be some validity to what you are saying, and perhaps this race will encourage trainers who believe they ACTUALLY have a turf horse to get it ready sooner...as for the most part what we see now are trainers running 2YOs on the turf because they are too slow for dirt races ( and usually end up too slow for the turf as well ). But, here's a problem, exactly who are the special US turf horses we have seen in the last ten years? Yes, lately we had a couple nice ones in Kitten's Joy and Artie Schiller ( and actually Barbaro ) but overall it is a VERY thin division with absolutely no depth of true quality even when we get into their 3YO years. This is theoretically a CHAMPIONSHIP event but this race is really one for lesser quality and just another chance for breeders to get fake black typing.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think there should be some validity to what you are saying, and perhaps this race will encourage trainers who believe they ACTUALLY have a turf horse to get it ready sooner...as for the most part what we see now are trainers running 2YOs on the turf because they are too slow for dirt races ( and usually end up too slow for the turf as well ). But, here's a problem, exactly who are the special US turf horses we have seen in the last ten years? Yes, lately we had a couple nice ones in Kitten's Joy and Artie Schiller ( and actually Barbaro ) but overall it is a VERY thin division with absolutely no depth of true quality even when we get into their 3YO years. This is theoretically a CHAMPIONSHIP event but this race is really one for lesser quality and just another chance for breeders to get fake black typing.

You are right that there aren't that many special US turf horses. Hopefully the addition of this race will help put more focus on the turf and make breeding for turf be a little more profitable and lead to more special turf horses. Between the addition of this race, the Grand Slam of Grass, and the ability to run on polytrack there are suddenly a lot more reasons to breed and/or buy a turf horse.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think there should be some validity to what you are saying, and perhaps this race will encourage trainers who believe they ACTUALLY have a turf horse to get it ready sooner...as for the most part what we see now are trainers running 2YOs on the turf because they are too slow for dirt races ( and usually end up too slow for the turf as well ). But, here's a problem, exactly who are the special US turf horses we have seen in the last ten years? Yes, lately we had a couple nice ones in Kitten's Joy and Artie Schiller ( and actually Barbaro ) but overall it is a VERY thin division with absolutely no depth of true quality even when we get into their 3YO years. This is theoretically a CHAMPIONSHIP event but this race is really one for lesser quality and just another chance for breeders to get fake black typing.

or horses that just have sore shins or sore feet but they want to get them in a race....


personally I hate the idea of the BC over 2 days...and the need for these races is somewhat debatable for all of the reasons that have already been mentioned...while I enjoy the pagentry of the BC...in general I agree with the premise that it has been bad for racing overall.

[SniperSB23]

This creates even more reason for revamping the Derby selection criteria. The top two finishers in the BC Juvenile Turf will be able to get into the Derby every year.

[Gander]

We need another 2 year old race like we need another thread about Nick Saban. We need a turf sprint for the fans and bettors.

Not sure what it matters to anyone on this board whether or not so and so deserves to earn a million dollar purse. Put a turf sprint out there and I guarntee you as much money will be bet on that race as with any of the BC races save for the Classic.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by merasmag

not that i wasn't...but c'mon...u and your people jump all over me when you don't like what i say...i get no credit when u use my ****???

Excuse me Sharon.. Just amazing. You've got some gall. Jim Gluckson of the NTRA refered to the two day event as a "festival" when I interviewed him on "At the Races and Beyond" on the afternoon of the 8th at around 6pm. The comment in my column about trying to effect a "festival" of racing with the BC is in reference to his comments on our nationally-broadcast show... not your typical witching hour blather that I hadn't even seen until today (when it was brought to my attention).

Here's the link to the interview: http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com/stream/1807c.mp3
Gluckson reference to "festival" at 9:50 mark of segment and by me again at the 12:00 mark...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I was more opposed to the addition of the Filly & Mare Turf than seemingly anyone else---so it shouldn't be a surprised that I think the addition of all these races, is a terrible day for the sport.

We have watered down Grade 1 races all year long, we have mediocre stake races with small fields and/or inflated purses all year long.

The Breeders Cup day was always the one day where you would see all the best, and they would face off against all the best.

The addition of a Breeders Cup Dirt mile has to be the absolute most annoying of the additons. Not only are you going to steal some quality horses away from both the Sprint and the Classic---but the addition of a dirt mile race is going to really screw up the complexion and pace scenerio of both races.

I have a bad feeling Discreet Cat will be pointed to that stupid new race instead of the Breeders Cup Classic.

If they had this silly race earlier, would Ghostzapper have ever been stretched out beyond 8.5 furlongs? He won the Grade 1, 6.5 furlong Vosburgh Stakes in tremendously impressive last-to-first fashion in his last start of his 3year-old season. Tom Durkin proclaiming him a "SPRINTING FORCE!" after the wire. Frankel passed on the Sprint, not wanting to cut him back to 6f's. GZ would likely have run if there was a BC Mile race that year. He wins that, and he may never get a distance test.

Ghostzapper routed just three times in his life---twice around two-turns, resulting in Beyer figs of 128 (fastest ever published in the DRF) and 124 (BC Classic win) --- his other route win came around one-turn, in a thrilling 1:46 and change victory over '05 HOY Saint Liam...winning despite being floated way out by SL.

I can go on and on about how I hate the other additions--but I'll spare you people that much. This Mile race is really the one that annoys me most.

Black Tie Affair won the BC Classic and was 3rd in a BC Sprint. Pleasant Tap was 2nd in both races. Precisionist won the Sprint and was 3rd in the Classic.

Instead of trying to create a race to lure horses like Ghostzapper, Black Tie Affair, Pleasant Tap, and Precisionist---let those types choose between the Sprint and the Classic. Not only do they add to the strength of the race, but their presence alone adds greatly to the race from tactical and pace standpoints.

To sum it all up--not only will the BC Mile Dirt race hurt the quality of both the Sprint and the Classic....but I also believe they will take away greatly from the excitement of both races. The likelyhood of slower paced BC Classic races is now far greater. The likelyhood of seeing the sensational visuals that came from Dancing Spree and Gulch's dramatic closing victories in the BC Sprint is also now much less likely. Both of those horses would have certainly passed the Sprint for a Dirt Mile. As might have a few other past winners of that race.

[Kasept]

Post of the Year... Thx DrugS.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I was more opposed to the addition of the Filly & Mare Turf than seemingly anyone else---so it shouldn't be a surprised that I think the addition of all these races, is a terrible day for the sport.

We have watered down Grade 1 races all year long, we have mediocre stake races with small fields and/or inflated purses all year long.

The Breeders Cup day was always the one day where you would see all the best, and they would face off against all the best.

The addition of a Breeders Cup Dirt mile has to be the absolute most annoying of the additons. Not only are you going to steal some quality horses away from both the Sprint and the Classic---but the addition of a dirt mile race is going to really screw up the complexion and pace scenerio of both races.

I have a bad feeling Discreet Cat will be pointed to that stupid new race instead of the Breeders Cup Classic.

If they had this silly race earlier, would Ghostzapper have ever been stretched out beyond 8.5 furlongs? He won the Grade 1, 6.5 furlong Vosburgh Stakes in tremendously impressive last-to-first fashion in his last start of his 3year-old season. Tom Durkin proclaiming him a "SPRINTING FORCE!" after the wire. Frankel passed on the Sprint, not wanting to cut him back to 6f's. GZ would likely have run if there was a BC Mile race that year. He wins that, and he may never get a distance test.

Ghostzapper routed just three times in his life---twice around two-turns, resulting in Beyer figs of 128 (fastest ever published in the DRF) and 124 (BC Classic win) --- his other route win came around one-turn, in a thrilling 1:46 and change victory over '05 HOY Saint Liam...winning despite being floated way out by SL.

I can go on and on about how I hate the other additions--but I'll spare you people that much. This Mile race is really the one that annoys me most.

Black Tie Affair won the BC Classic and was 3rd in a BC Sprint. Pleasant Tap was 2nd in both races. Precisionist won the Sprint and was 3rd in the Classic.

Instead of trying to create a race to lure horses like Ghostzapper, Black Tie Affair, Pleasant Tap, and Precisionist---let those types choose between the Sprint and the Classic. Not only do they add to the strength of the race, but their presence alone adds greatly to the race from tactical and pace standpoints.

To sum it all up--not only will the BC Mile Dirt race hurt the quality of both the Sprint and the Classic....but I also believe they will take away greatly from the excitement of both races. The likelyhood of slower paced BC Classic races is now far greater. The likelyhood of seeing the sensational visuals that came from Dancing Spree and Gulch's dramatic closing victories in the BC Sprint is also now much less likely. Both of those horses would have certainly passed the Sprint for a Dirt Mile. As might have a few other past winners of that race.

So well said. It's dilution, plain and simple. Less chance to see the best against the best.

Maybe we can look forward to a 9-furlong BC race in a couple of years, for the "distance horse" that cannot quite hack 10 furlongs but isn't quite quick enough for 8. And we'll have to have one for the fillies and mares, too. Wouldn't a 3-day "festival" be better than two, anyway?

--Dunbar