2021 Eclipse Award Ballot & Discussion

[knickslions2]

I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

So Yibir is out too I guess.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So Yibir is out too I guess.

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

If this were 20 years ago I’d agree with you. Abbreviated campaigns are a reality.

Where is your sweet spot on number of starts? Is 4 award worthy?

I haven’t put a whole lot of thought into it, but looking at what each of the finalists accomplished, Domestic Spending’s resume is as good as any in that division. He didn’t show up often, but he made it count when he did.

[cakes44]

So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cakes44

So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

No

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cakes44

So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

If you definitely believe Domestic is number one, you might make an argument for Colonel Liam. I'm not one, as he was outrageously lucky when he dead heated Domestic and got drowned in the Manhattan when they both got fair trips. The Pegasus Turf has always been a dubious Grade 1. It's the Gulfstream Park Turf, which was always a questionable Grade 1, and beating Largent in a photo wasn't overly impressive. Having said that, however, he does have some credentials.

I get the Yibir support. I'm not a huge fan, but he's not a terrible choice. Space Blues? No thanks. Perfect trip in a dreadful BC Mile and it's not like he had a wildly impressive European campaign ( though better than Yibir did ). It's a flawed division, to say the least, and even Domestic is a shaky champion. It is fair to point out that he only ran three times, but I just think he did more in those three races than any others. How is Yibir winning an uncompetitive ungraded race at Belmont against overmatched horses good enough to make his BC win, against one good Euro who was essentially eased, more impressive than Domestic's three races? To me, it isn't...but I can't argue too strongly against it.

Taking a stand for Smooth Like Strait is indefensible in my opinion.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

I can understand this position but it goes against history. Many horses have been named champions off of only one race in this country. Many people forget that not only was Arazi named 2yo champion but he was also one of the three finalists for HOY in 1991 and that was with only one race in this country. People forget that Singspiel was voted champion turf horse in 1996 and never won a race in the United States. So with history to look back on, rewarding horses that only run here once is ok. I’ve always believed that the awards should come with more qualifying criteria, chief among them being number of starts in this country. But until that day comes, the ballots say that in order to be qualified, you only need one start in North America (unless it’s been changed and I’m unaware), and it makes it so subjective. Is it the “best” horse? Is it the most accomplished horse? Is it the horse that had the best and most complete season?

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I can understand this position but it goes against history. Many horses have been named champions off of only one race in this country. Many people forget that not only was Arazi named 2yo champion but he was also one of the three finalists for HOY in 1991 and that was with only one race in this country. People forget that Singspiel was voted champion turf horse in 1996 and never won a race in the United States. So with history to look back on, rewarding horses that only run here once is ok. I’ve always believed that the awards should come with more qualifying criteria, chief among them being number of starts in this country. But until that day comes, the ballots say that in order to be qualified, you only need one start in North America (unless it’s been changed and I’m unaware), and it makes it so subjective. Is it the “best” horse? Is it the most accomplished horse? Is it the horse that had the best and most complete season?

All I know is I wouldn’t vote for a horse that only ran 3 times in a year only wining twice. I dont have a vote so it doesn’t matter.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

All I know is I wouldn’t vote for a horse that only ran 3 times in a year only wining twice. I dont have a vote so it doesn’t matter.

None of it matters but it’s a fun discussion. We used to have lots of discussions here.

You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

Ignoring number of 2021 starts, it seems reasonable to expect Domestic Spending, Colonel Liam, and Yibir as the 3 finalists (with United as an alternate, though CA no longer has any turf Grade 1s beyond a mile).

But with a minimum starts criteria the finalists should be:

Rockemperor, Gufo, and Two Emmys. Those 3 just beating out Japan and any English Channel horse of your choosing (Channel Maker, Bizzee Channel, or Spooky Channel).

Arklow would have made the cut if he had just one more also-ran performance...

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

None of it matters but it’s a fun discussion. We used to have lots of discussions here.

You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

Good question. I would like to have seen 4 or 5 total. Its hard to judge. I know horses dont run like the used to but to me 3 races with 1 win, 1 tie and a 2nd doesnt seem like the horse should win the award. Say 4 races with 3 wins and another solid showing or 5 races with three wins and I would feel better. I think the horse is really good but not deserving of an eclipse.

[FATPIANO]

I can never forget Easy Goer/Sunday Silence 3yr old campaign. IMHO Easy Goer had the better body of work (just like EQ.) But SS beat EG more times. (just like Medina Spirit beat EQ, both times they raced against each other). And SS was voted champion. I would crown Medina Spirit Champion 3yr old.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

I can never forget Easy Goer/Sunday Silence 3yr old campaign. IMHO Easy Goer had the better body of work (just like EQ.) But SS beat EG more times. (just like Medina Spirit beat EQ, both times they raced against each other). And SS was voted champion. I would crown Medina Spirit Champion 3yr old.

Good point Whittingham was a notorious juicer. lol