Derby Aftermath

[knickslions2]

LOL now it’s Otomax. The vets didn’t know betamethesone is in it? While it’s possible that the levels detected could have been because of this it still doesn’t make sense as the levels in gamine were very similar and supposedly the horse had the shot. Just admit your vets don’t know what the hell they are doing. They miscalculated drug pk.

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

A simple

"We used a legal medication and miscalculated how long it took to clear his body, may be due to having to factor in Non use of Lasix, we need to figure this out and insure it doesn't happen again"

But no.. He goes on Fox and Panders to their audience with the "Cancel Culture" nonsense.

Originally Posted by knickslions2

LOL now it’s Otomax. The vets didn’t know betamethesone is in it? While it’s possible that the levels detected could have been because of this it still doesn’t make sense as the levels in gamine were very similar and supposedly the horse had the shot. Just admit your vets don’t know what the hell they are doing. They miscalculated drug pk.

Wouldn’t he be admitting to intentionally operating outside of the rules if he admitted to this? No way around it, that’s cheating and would tarnish his legacy. Better to be considered incompetent.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by moses

Wouldn’t he be admitting to intentionally operating outside of the rules if he admitted to this? No way around it, that’s cheating and would tarnish his legacy. Better to be considered incompetent.

Well it is a legal drug that is expected to clear the system if administered within the appropriate timeframe. That IMO is his cover for this, deem it a mistake and he doesn't come across as a cheat. Either way he isn't escaping DQ unless he is cleared on second test.

[ADJMK]

Originally Posted by moses

Wouldn’t he be admitting to intentionally operating outside of the rules if he admitted to this? No way around it, that’s cheating and would tarnish his legacy. Better to be considered incompetent.

No the rules are you are allowed to use certain medications, but there are withdrawal times that you have to consider when using.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by moses

Wouldn’t he be admitting to intentionally operating outside of the rules if he admitted to this? No way around it, that’s cheating and would tarnish his legacy. Better to be considered incompetent.

Just admit the mistake and move on. It’s not a performance enhancing drug. He’s just digging himself in deeper with this other crap.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

Just admit the mistake and move on. It’s not a performance enhancing drug. He’s just digging himself in deeper with this other crap.

My definition of Performance enhancing will include anything to mask pain. It is a natural instinct when feeling pain to not go to your maximum effort.. But you are far more schooled in these sciences.. Am I off in my thinking?

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

My definition of Performance enhancing will include anything to mask pain. It is a natural instinct when feeling pain to not go to your maximum effort.. But you are far more schooled in these sciences.. Am I off in my thinking?

That’s my thought. My wife just gave birth last Wednesday (the baby was due in April but waited until after Derby Day, maybe she wanted to avoid seeing another Baffert horse win it?). Anyway, she got an epidural beforehand and it sure seems like it enabled her to push through the pain. Different drug but same concept - mask the pain and the horse doesn’t know it’s supposed to be hurting and just keeps running. But I defer to those with more knowledge on the topic.

This makes me worry about the entire sport though. How many people are going to read this story and say: “So they’re allowed to mask pain up to a certain point through the use of certain drugs. But if training and racing hurts these horses and they can’t train/race without painkillers and other drugs, why are we even allowing this?” To a lot of outside observers, that’s going to sound like animal cruelty.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by moses

That’s my thought. My wife just gave birth last Wednesday (the baby was due in April but waited until after Derby Day, maybe she wanted to avoid seeing another Baffert horse win it?). Anyway, she got an epidural beforehand and it sure seems like it enabled her to push through the pain. Different drug but same concept - mask the pain and the horse doesn’t know it’s supposed to be hurting and just keeps running. But I defer to those with more knowledge on the topic.

This makes me worry about the entire sport though. How many people are going to read this story and say: “So they’re allowed to mask pain up to a certain point through the use of certain drugs. But if training and racing hurts these horses and they can’t train/race without painkillers and other drugs, why are we even allowing this?” To a lot of outside observers, that’s going to sound like animal cruelty.

First off Congratulations. Secondly the medication debate has been going on for years and will continue after we both are gone.

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

First off Congratulations. Secondly the medication debate has been going on for years and will continue after we both are gone.

Thanks and I’m sure you’re right. Would love to just see the sport cleaned up though.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by jms62

My definition of Performance enhancing will include anything to mask pain. It is a natural instinct when feeling pain to not go to your maximum effort.. But you are far more schooled in these sciences.. Am I off in my thinking?

Originally Posted by moses

That’s my thought. My wife just gave birth last Wednesday (the baby was due in April but waited until after Derby Day, maybe she wanted to avoid seeing another Baffert horse win it?). Anyway, she got an epidural beforehand and it sure seems like it enabled her to push through the pain. Different drug but same concept - mask the pain and the horse doesn’t know it’s supposed to be hurting and just keeps running. But I defer to those with more knowledge on the topic.

This makes me worry about the entire sport though. How many people are going to read this story and say: “So they’re allowed to mask pain up to a certain point through the use of certain drugs. But if training and racing hurts these horses and they can’t train/race without painkillers and other drugs, why are we even allowing this?” To a lot of outside observers, that’s going to sound like animal cruelty.

It’s tricky. It’s not a true pain killer but more to treat inflammation. I would think they use it after a tough workout to take down swelling and have horse heal faster. Like a suped up ibuprofen delivered directly to the joints. It has a very short half life and really if was going to mask pain would need to be given real close to race day. The levels here show that not to be true. However the rules state not within 14 days of a race which clearly was broken. Remember it’s legal drug and has its place if uses as governed.

[moses]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

It’s tricky. It’s not a true pain killer but more to treat inflammation. I would think they use it after a tough workout to take down swelling and have horse heal faster. Like a suped up ibuprofen delivered directly to the joints. It has a very short half life and really if was going to mask pain would need to be given real close to race day. The levels here show that not to be true. However the rules state not within 14 days of a race which clearly was broken. Remember it’s legal drug and has its place if uses as governed.

Interesting. Let’s say hypothetically then that Medina Spirit was administered betamethasone due to inflammation and the Baffert camp thought he needed it close to the Derby. Does that not bode well for his ability to turn it around again in 2 weeks or is that totally unpredictable?

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by knickslions2

Just admit the mistake and move on. It’s not a performance enhancing drug. He’s just digging himself in deeper with this other crap.

IMO, Baffert knows the split will be positive so he's building his defense for DQ.
Baffert using this excuse to say he was caring for the horse's welfare instead of knowingly cheating.

[moses]

Originally Posted by jms62

Well it is a legal drug that is expected to clear the system if administered within the appropriate timeframe. That IMO is his cover for this, deem it a mistake and he doesn't come across as a cheat. Either way he isn't escaping DQ unless he is cleared on second test.

Originally Posted by ADJMK

No the rules are you are allowed to use certain medications, but there are withdrawal times that you have to consider when using.

Originally Posted by knickslions2

Just admit the mistake and move on. It’s not a performance enhancing drug. He’s just digging himself in deeper with this other crap.

Maybe you guys are right but isn’t that the excuse that he used with Gamine? Could he use the same excuse again? And he sort of killed that option when he jumped out and said that Medina Spirit was never administered the drug.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by moses

Maybe you guys are right but isn’t that the excuse that he used with Gamine? Could he use the same excuse again? And he sort of killed that option when he jumped out and said that Medina Spirit was never administered the drug.

I think you can use that excuse again.... Especially if Gamine was treated with Lasix...