Most Overrated Horses

[cakes44]

Can a horse be both overrated and underrated?

Commentator

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Can a horse be both overrated and underrated?

Commentator

He’s an interesting pick. What was overrated about him? Brilliant sprint speed and was able to carry it 9 furlongs in the Whitney not once but twice.

[cakes44]

Melted at wildly short odds multiple times. Brittle as heck. Only ran once in the BC and got waxed.

At the same time, he ran HUGE races and over an extended period of time. That’s why I’m saying overrated and underrated at the same time.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Melted at wildly short odds multiple times. Brittle as heck. Only ran once in the BC and got waxed.

At the same time, he ran HUGE races and over an extended period of time. That’s why I’m saying overrated and underrated at the same time.

I think you are confusing unreliable with overrated.

[cakes44]

Could be.

I’ll offer up Kitten’s Joy.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Could be.

I’ll offer up Kitten’s Joy.

What about him? He was a monster

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What about him? He was a monster

Better than Powerscourt?

[Conrad]

Ashado

She won a lot of races and a lot of money, but, as a figure maker, I found her unimpressive.

She faced decent opposition (Stellar Jayne, Storm Flag Flying, Society Selection and others) but nothing spectacular.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Conrad

Ashado

She won a lot of races and a lot of money, but, as a figure maker, I found her unimpressive.

She faced decent opposition (Stellar Jayne, Storm Flag Flying, Society Selection and others) but nothing spectacular.

I had her on my list originally, but ultimately thought she had been exposed enough times to not be severely overrated.

She did win the BC as a 3yo and those 2 rivals from her crop that you mentioned were in good form in the summer of the 3yo year. For a Pletcher trainee, she did more as a 4yo than I would have anticipated...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Can a horse be both overrated and underrated?

Commentator

I like this choice. Leave him alone up front and he was brilliant. But pressure him and it was usually a different story.

[King Glorious]

I'd say Justify.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd say Justify.

IMO it's inconceivable a horse could win the Triple Crown and be overrated.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

IMO it's inconceivable a horse could win the Triple Crown and be overrated.

I think competition matters. I'd argue that if either Sunday Silence or Easy Goer didn't exist, the other would be regarded much higher than they already are. I think Easy Goer might be proclaimed as the best horse ever had there been no Sunday Silence.

Horses like Smarty Jones, Alysheba, Point Given, even Real Quiet, these horses don't have the status in history that Justify does because he won the TC but they didn't have the advantage of facing the patsies he did. A horse like Risen Star doesn't get the credit he should get because he lost the Derby to Winning Colors and Forty Niner but in my eyes, he was much better than Justify. Justify was a really good horse. No question about that but I think the accomplishment makes people think he's better than some horses that didn't accomplish the same thing because they faced better competition.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Justify was a really good horse. No question about that but I think the accomplishment makes people think he's better than some horses that didn't accomplish the same thing because they faced better competition.

No one accomplished what Justify did when he debuted in mid-February and by early June was a Triple Crown winner. He outdueled a Grade 1-winning sprinter through ridiculous fractions in the Kentucky Derby with a horse with one of the fastest 2yo performances ever right at his hip for a mid-race challenge and still won the race clear. In the Preakness the juvenile champion went right for his throat from the bell (much to the chagrin of his trainer) and he pried out the upper hand in the final furlong with enough left to hold off any opportunistic upstart. He got no breaks at any point of his brief racing career.

Justify, Rock Hard Ten, and Risen Star were all horses whose careers were derailed by injury and were to an extent martyrs of the Triple Crown.

Rock Hard Ten tried to pull the same stunt as Justify, and nearly pulled off the first part when debuting in February before just missing in a photo in the Santa Anita Derby 2 starts later. Not taking time to reflect on the ridiculousness of the campaign they were pursuing with the horse when excluded from the Kentucky Derby field, his connections continued to push the horse in distance and class with each and every start. Even started only 4 weeks after a second straight double digit loss in the Belmont. Unfortunately, the horse won that race, emboldening his handlers to put him right back on a plane and back into the frying pan. After bombing in the Haskell he mercifully got time off. When he returned he did little wrong but wasn't sound. Tagged the ascending Lava Man in Malibu and drowned Saint Liam in the Big Cap during that one's HOY campaign. Was sidelined until the fall and could make only one start beating the overrated Roman Ruler, a son of the overrated Fusaichi Pegasus.

Risen Star was falling apart leading up to the Belmont Stakes. He had a suspensory strain out of the Preakness and couldn't train much in the weeks leading up to the Belmont. He then ran off in a blowout, breezing 3 furlongs in :33+ the day before the race. In this day and age it's doubtful he would have been allowed to start with all that, but back then there wasn't as much scrutiny and there was a $1 million bonus on the line. Ran himself into the record books with a powerhouse performance second (at the time) only to his own sire. Not surprisingly was also ruined for racing afterwards.

[Alabama Stakes]

Mineshaft

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No one accomplished what Justify did when he debuted in mid-February and by early June was a Triple Crown winner. He outdueled a Grade 1-winning sprinter through ridiculous fractions in the Kentucky Derby with a horse with one of the fastest 2yo performances ever right at his hip for a mid-race challenge and still won the race clear. In the Preakness the juvenile champion went right for his throat from the bell (much to the chagrin of his trainer) and he pried out the upper hand in the final furlong with enough left to hold off any opportunistic upstart. He got no breaks at any point of his brief racing career.

Justify, Rock Hard Ten, and Risen Star were all horses whose careers were derailed by injury and were to an extent martyrs of the Triple Crown.

Rock Hard Ten tried to pull the same stunt as Justify, and nearly pulled off the first part when debuting in February before just missing in a photo in the Santa Anita Derby 2 starts later. Not taking time to reflect on the ridiculousness of the campaign they were pursuing with the horse when excluded from the Kentucky Derby field, his connections continued to push the horse in distance and class with each and every start. Even started only 4 weeks after a second straight double digit loss in the Belmont. Unfortunately, the horse won that race, emboldening his handlers to put him right back on a plane and back into the frying pan. After bombing in the Haskell he mercifully got time off. When he returned he did little wrong but wasn't sound. Tagged the ascending Lava Man in Malibu and drowned Saint Liam in the Big Cap during that one's HOY campaign. Was sidelined until the fall and could make only one start beating the overrated Roman Ruler, a son of the overrated Fusaichi Pegasus.

Risen Star was falling apart leading up to the Belmont Stakes. He had a suspensory strain out of the Preakness and couldn't train much in the weeks leading up to the Belmont. He then ran off in a blowout, breezing 3 furlongs in :33+ the day before the race. In this day and age it's doubtful he would have been allowed to start with all that, but back then there wasn't as much scrutiny and there was a $1 million bonus on the line. Ran himself into the record books with a powerhouse performance second (at the time) only to his own sire. Not surprisingly was also ruined for racing afterwards.

The point wasn’t to say that Justify wasn’t an outstanding horse that accomplished great things. But historically, Justify will always be remembered as greater than Risen Star because he won the TC and I think Risen Star was better. He lost his Derby to two champions that were multiple grade one winners. Justify didn’t have to face horses the quality of Winning Colors and Forty Niner. Can’t be proven of course but my bet is that if you could switch the years and have Justify facing what Risen Star faced and vice versa, we’d have a different TC winner.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I like this choice. Leave him alone up front and he was brilliant. But pressure him and it was usually a different story.

What races was he not left alone and wilted? The Woodward when Dutrow’s TWO rabbits pressured him from the inside and outside?

I think BTW put it well saying he was unreliable. I don’t ever remember people talking about him a certain way. But his fragility was well known. When he was right, good luck beating him. When he wasn’t...well he was very beatable.

I’m just not sure how when you’re one of three horses ever to win the Whitney multiple times and the other two are Kelso and Discovery you can be overrated.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I think BTW put it well saying he was unreliable. I don’t ever remember people talking about him a certain way. But his fragility was well known. When he was right, good luck beating him. When he wasn’t...well he was very beatable.

To your point, all his bad defeats were followed up by layoffs of 3 months or more (usually more).