23% sales tax; no fed. income tax

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by pgardn

why would people work hard if not to acquire wealth?

Why would people want to lay around doing nothing? I dont work hard to make money. I work hard because I like working hard. I dont like sitting around doing nothing. I will work hard at anything, just as long as I dont have to sit around and be lazy. I have to be doing something more than what others might consider total hedonism (sipping a margarita on the beach watching pretty girls). I got to get up and get in the surf and start splashing around, build a sand castle something... how can people just sit still and do nothing.

So I personally dont get the lazy thing. That people work to make money. Lots of retired people work very hard and dont make a dime.

Pgardn: It's quite simple really....this is the Age of Entitlement! Everything is owed to someone and and its their right to have thus and such. The fact of the matter is that it's incumbent on the society,not the govt, to take care of those less fortunate. Some of this burden has been borne by the Red Cross,Salvation Army,Goodwill,and various charitable organizations and food banks. If we as a society dont "burn out" our teachers and leaders, we could make a sizeable dent in the conditions of many folks....and then there's family!

[skippy3481]

P,
You have a strong work ethic, as a great deal of people here do, but, many people do not. If you want witness go into a mcdonalds in the inner city, they are being paid and don't care. Apathy in the workplace is going to happen. If you take out the monetary element from working, most of them would slow to a stop. Some people would rather do as little as possible and just enough to get paid. my parents always taught me, it doesn't matter what you do, but whatever it is, give everything.

[Cannon Shell]

Interestingly enough Sommer makes his argument that money does not equal personal value but wants to redistribute the money anyway. This is kind of a silly argument isn't it?
The sad truth is that equality does not, has not, nor will ever exist anywhere. We are only familiar with our own society but racism, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, poverty, starvation, etc are a worldwide issue and always have been and always will. Human nature dictates. Humans are weak and humans are strong. Humans are smart and humans are dumb. Humans are not made equally. The problems is not that the rich are prospering, it is that the poor are failing. Lashing out at one group wont help another. It is a simplistic argument that is so foolish I cant believe that someone with a 150 IQ would attempt to make it. Taxing individuals to extreme means demeans accomplishment and achievement. And for those who are born rich, why discriminate against them without reason? Because of where they were born? How is that any different than discriminating against a persons skin color? To discriminate against any person for an event totally out of their control is crazy.
Also I would think that a person with a 150 IQ would realize the folly of giving our government billions of dollars and expecting any REAL help for the poor.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Interestingly enough Sommer makes his argument that money does not equal personal value but wants to redistribute the money anyway. This is kind of a silly argument isn't it?
The sad truth is that equality does not, has not, nor will ever exist anywhere. We are only familiar with our own society but racism, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, poverty, starvation, etc are a worldwide issue and always have been and always will. Human nature dictates. Humans are weak and humans are strong. Humans are smart and humans are dumb. Humans are not made equally. The problems is not that the rich are prospering, it is that the poor are failing. Lashing out at one group wont help another. It is a simplistic argument that is so foolish I cant believe that someone with a 150 IQ would attempt to make it. Taxing individuals to extreme means demeans accomplishment and achievement. And for those who are born rich, why discriminate against them without reason? Because of where they were born? How is that any different than discriminating against a persons skin color? To discriminate against any person for an event totally out of their control is crazy.
Also I would think that a person with a 150 IQ would realize the folly of giving our government billions of dollars and expecting any REAL help for the poor.

This is of course why I never have and never will post my score on the net...people can't help themselves but to attempt to belittle someone with whom they disagree! IQ scores are a very very subjective measure of intelligence and I only responded to another poster...you raised some valid questions, too bad you felt the need to keep harping on some man-made measure of what we call intellect. Since it seems somehow important to you, please note that I didn't designate a specific number but merely indicated a score over the number previously mentioned....
Now, regarding your first point....there is no discrepancy in me stating that wealth is not the true measure of a life while stating that everyone should experience a measure of economic equality...it isn't silly to desire a world free of unnecessary suffering and poverty, and having a world where all folks share the resources in no way values or devalues them on that basis...that is beyond silly, it's a stupid and deliberate misrepresentation.
Point #2...I totally reject the defeatest attitute that because things are a certain way they will always be that way! The old "word of Christ" BS that the poor will always be with us is taken out of context (as DTS and others have pointed out). If I am correct in my belief that all men (and women) are connected, that they are all brothers (and sisters), then your view is merely perception...and perceptions do change over time!
Point #3...discriminating against the rich? Lets see...we can have a world where everyone shares and lives and works together for the good of all or we can have a world where a lucky few have everything while the vast majority suffer...now again, who is discriminating against who???

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

This is of course why I never have and never will post my score on the net...people can't help themselves but to attempt to belittle someone with whom they disagree! IQ scores are a very very subjective measure of intelligence and I only responded to another poster...you raised some valid questions, too bad you felt the need to keep harping on some man-made measure of what we call intellect. Since it seems somehow important to you, please note that I didn't designate a specific number but merely indicated a score over the number previously mentioned....
Now, regarding your first point....there is no discrepancy in me stating that wealth is not the true measure of a life while stating that everyone should experience a measure of economic equality...it isn't silly to desire a world free of unnecessary suffering and poverty, and having a world where all folks share the resources in no way values or devalues them on that basis...that is beyond silly, it's a stupid and deliberate misrepresentation.
Point #2...I totally reject the defeatest attitute that because things are a certain way they will always be that way! The old "word of Christ" BS that the poor will always be with us is taken out of context (as DTS and others have pointed out). If I am correct in my belief that all men (and women) are connected, that they are all brothers (and sisters), then your view is merely perception...and perceptions do change over time!
Point #3...discriminating against the rich? Lets see...we can have a world where everyone shares and lives and works together for the good of all or we can have a world where a lucky few have everything while the vast majority suffer...now again, who is discriminating against who???

You posted your IQ score, you opened the door , not me.
I dont see where taking from the rich will relieve the suffering of the oppressed. The reasons behind the "bad things in the world" are not all related to money. You seem to suffer from reverse discrimination or perhaps just pure and simple jealousy. You want to create by tearing down instead of building up. My "defeatest attitude" stems from the realization that all men are NOT equal despite your determiniation that we are all 'connected'. I am sure that my skills and intellegence levels in certain matters are far greater than yours as yours in certain matters are greater than mine. That does not make us equals despite any connection that we may have. Just as the strong survive in the wild, natural selection dictates that some will overcome while some will fail. The strong should not have to pay a penalty for being strong.

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid. If we all lived in perfect harmony and cured all diseases the world would run out of food and fresh water in 6 months. Ambition is not a crime, nor is being wealthy and spending your money in the manner that you please. The rich cant inject ambition into the poor. Many rich people started out life as poor as dirt and worked and worked and got a lucky break or two and found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

That's a sort of game. set. match. thing. There is really no combatting this example. If you leveled the playing field, it would just become unequal immediately again. Well said.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

I struggle with this idea -- as I would like for our government to tax the wildly wealthy more (not 90% though), but then again the government may not be the best source of success in combatting poverty given their incredible track record thus far. So no matter how you approach it, you end up at the same problem. We need more money and more resources to combat poverty and the wild inequality we have -- but what do we do? We take the money from the rich and let the government waste it on ineffective ways to motivate the poor and poverty stricken? It's a catch-22, because you lose both ways. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying we haven't figured out how to do it yet. How do we really help those stuck in poverty and unable to get out while at the same time not just handing money over to those in poverty due to their laziness and lack of motivation? You can't have a motivation test on paper to determine who gets the actual help and who gets a hearty "too bad for you."

And it's far easier when i'm not wildly rich, because I'm pretty sure that if I somehow got there, I'd be pissy about people wanting more of my money too because I would say I had earned it fair and square.....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

That's a sort of game. set. match. thing. There is really no combatting this example. If you leveled the playing field, it would just become unequal immediately again. Well said.



I struggle with this idea -- as I would like for our government to tax the wildly wealthy more (not 90% though), but then again the government may not be the best source of success in combatting poverty given their incredible track record thus far. So no matter how you approach it, you end up at the same problem. We need more money and more resources to combat poverty and the wild inequality we have -- but what do we do? We take the money from the rich and let the government waste it on ineffective ways to motivate the poor and poverty stricken? It's a catch-22, because you lose both ways. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying we haven't figured out how to do it yet. How do we really help those stuck in poverty and unable to get out while at the same time not just handing money over to those in poverty due to their laziness and lack of motivation? You can't have a motivation test on paper to determine who gets the actual help and who gets a hearty "too bad for you."

And it's far easier when i'm not wildly rich, because I'm pretty sure that if I somehow got there, I'd be pissy about people wanting more of my money too because I would say I had earned it fair and square.....

Unlss you specify specific groups or demographics it is impossible to come up with any blanket solution or plan to deal with the poor and suffering. Certainly taxing the rich to death will not solve anything except satisfy those who envy the wealthy. I always thought it strange that the first group that it attacked when dealing with the poor is the rich. I'm sure that I personally am not considered rich by most on this board, however if I was to relocate to a third world country with the same income level I would be considered mega wealthy. It is all relative.
Most people who attack the wealthy are simply envious. It is easy to take the supposed high groind when you dont have anything to lose.
My standard of living allows me to be able to live in a great house in an upscale neighborhood. I drive a luxury SUV. I own racehorses. Should I sell these things, move into public housing and send the govt my money? Why take from me for others that have no connection to me except for the fact that we are "brothers" according to Sommerfrost? It makes no sense. What I'm not who we are talking about? Bill Gates then? Should he not deserve to do with his money what he pleases? His CREATIONS have advanced the world far more than the 30 billion that he is worth would.
We are not robots. We are people. We love. We hate. We are imperfect being living in an imperfect world. Accept the rich as you do the poor. Dont disciminate against sucessful people because they are sucessful. Dont try to set another persons morality level. If I said that I hate the poor because they are worthless people who drag down society, what would you think of me? So why is ok to say the same thing of the rich?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You posted your IQ score, you opened the door , not me.
I dont see where taking from the rich will relieve the suffering of the oppressed. The reasons behind the "bad things in the world" are not all related to money. You seem to suffer from reverse discrimination or perhaps just pure and simple jealousy. You want to create by tearing down instead of building up. My "defeatest attitude" stems from the realization that all men are NOT equal despite your determiniation that we are all 'connected'. I am sure that my skills and intellegence levels in certain matters are far greater than yours as yours in certain matters are greater than mine. That does not make us equals despite any connection that we may have. Just as the strong survive in the wild, natural selection dictates that some will overcome while some will fail. The strong should not have to pay a penalty for being strong.

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid. If we all lived in perfect harmony and cured all diseases the world would run out of food and fresh water in 6 months. Ambition is not a crime, nor is being wealthy and spending your money in the manner that you please. The rich cant inject ambition into the poor. Many rich people started out life as poor as dirt and worked and worked and got a lucky break or two and found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

Well CS, I don't know about your concept of "opening the door"....I really don't care about it, but you sure seem fixated on it. You equate success with wealth...I don't, and that is something I doubt we will reach common ground on! Jealous of the wealthy...why? Anyway, I don't care about the accumulation of wealth but I do care when folks' greed harms others. Is a person evil because they are rich? Of course not, nor are they "inferior" because they are poor. Everyone has talents, and everyone has weaknesses...how does that reflect on their intrinsic "value"?? Again, you are using a measure of a person's worth that I totally reject...so there is no real chance that we will agree here! All I'm saying is that you can't measure my philosophy using your yardstick...do you understand that? Let me try one last time here...I see all of creation as being connected, all people as being connected, we are all part of that which we call mankind and we are all part of the universes which in turn are part of the creator, that makes us all equal...it can be no other way! Now, you may reject this philosophy, you may even make fun of it, that's your decision...but it's pointless for us to argue whether my view is true or not...it's true to me! I believe that the world's resources should be shared equally by everyone and that no one has a "right" to take more than their share at the expense of others!

[skippy3481]

CS, could not have said it any better thank you.

[timmgirvan]

I'm still not grasping your point about some peoples' greed hurting others! Are you talking about the US as a capitalistic society, or do you target the oil and energy companies! Being wealthy is not a crime,nor is it wrong! In this society, the idea is to carry your own weight...most do,some don't. We have flawed systems in place for healthcare and jobless and homeless,but it's wrong to blame the rich for societys' ills....most likely it's the people who are respnsible for societys' ills.