BC Sprint Purse Being Withheld

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Like what? What more is at play? Say specifically. You can chide Ellis for taking a chance with a compounded steroid that's not as consistent as the steroid era commercial products (Winstrol, Equipoise, etc.) were and for choosing to run after the discussions with CHRB, but that's about it. He and everything that went on leading up to Cup were well known by the parties involved starting with the record of Masochistic getting a stanozolol injection days after the Pat O'Brien.

The recriminations should be directed towards the governing bodies, no? Everyone was aware of a potential problem weeks out and handled it poorly. They had a trace positive 22 days out and everyone took a wait and see. Then 8 days out they still have it but don't tell Ellis until 3 days out when he can't get a test turned around. Then the entry is accepted and dice rolled. If you're doing out of competition testing, USE IT PROACTIVELY. Horse can't enter.

Separately, I know it's important at Pace Advantage to be a cool kid and **** on everything and everyone involved in the sport, but that doesn't play here. Andy doesn't know Ellis at all as stated above and I know him from having him on radio maybe twice a year. I think I've shaken his hand twice. His reputation is pristine and it's completely understandable that a trainer wouldn't care to reveal what their operation does when attempting to improve a claimed horse. Why would they and alert other outfits to things they may be overlooking in their training?

As for criticism of Jay Privman writing a factually accurate spot news article, I've never seen anything so bizarre. And as for me, ATR coverage of the story was instantaneous and thorough featuring Ellis on all aspects of the circumstances, Dr. Steven Allday, the leading practicing veterinarian in the sport on stanozolol and its' properties and attorney Alan Foreman of RMTC, ARCI, Maryland Jockey Club and Thoroughbred Horseman's Association on the regulatory aspects.

But you didn't listen to any of those segments, did you? I'll summarize their appearances. Ellis is embarrassed and would have handled things differently knowing what he knows now about the steroid in question. Allday criticized him for playing with fire with an unstable metabolic. Foreman said testing continues to be stringent and effective down now to the picogram and the protocols for steroids have effectively eliminated them from the game. If operations want to use them the way Ellis did twice this year between layoffs or on the farm bring horses back from injury, etc., they better be sure the product is out of the horses' system before running. In other words, though the entry management was handled badly, the testing system worked.

Going forward there's execution elements that can be addressed out of this incident which is a good thing. If you're going to out of competition test, put it to use and refuse entry to avoid a problem. Of course it's more important to feign outrage and attack anyone involved in any way rather than understand the hows and whys and potential for improvement.

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Appreciate you listening, your viewpoint and the kind wishes. There's a bunch of moving parts to this and those in position to prevent the unnecessary and embarrassing incident (Ellis through BC) failed.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Where's the apology to me?

[cmorioles]

Ellis tried to play by the rules though he made a dumb decision at the end.

That said, the rules have to change. Here is a guy skipping G1s where he'd be favored to instead put his horse on steroids. This isn't some sick or injured horse making a comeback. It was a horse in training that had just easily won a race. It was planned AHEAD of time.

If he truly can't race without that, I think racing could survive with horses like him not having three starts a year. Also, I'll add, this isn't a Masochistic thing. Ellis does this rather routinely with horses (male and female) right after starts. It isn't too hard to figure out looking at the vet lists.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Ellis tried to play by the rules though he made a dumb decision at the end.

That said, the rules have to change. Here is a guy skipping G1s where he'd be favored to instead put his horse on steroids. This isn't some sick or injured horse making a comeback. It was a horse in training that had just easily won a race. It was planned AHEAD of time.

If he truly can't race without that, I think racing could survive with horses like him not having three starts a year. Also, I'll add, this isn't a Masochistic thing. Ellis does this rather routinely with horses (male and female) right after starts. It isn't too hard to figure out looking at the vet lists.

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the BC wasn't told due to rules in place. Have some catching up to do on ATR tonight.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

As the most important source for Racing News etc. You are in a VERY tough spot. Very hard to ask Ellis Yo what's with the vet's list after races and the 35% winners with 60 + days rest? How do you skip a G1 after galloping in an allowance? You cant ask him, Ron what was it in the first 48 hours after galloping in an allowance that convinced you and the attending vet that Winstrol was indicated? You just cant, none of these guys would EVER tolerant this scrutiny nor is it your place.

There is some underlying truth to Paul's Blog. I also have held certain trainers beyond approach. I was first to come out and tweet Sam she isnt a cheat. I still don't think she is a cheat. I do think people like to win and it gets the best of them, in Sam's case it not about money the purse for the gelding is nice but she blows MULTIPLES of that on speculative yearlings EVERY year, she let winning and being at her home track on racing's biggest day get the best of her. I shouldn't feel bad for them but I still do and maybe that's the problem.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

As the most important source for Racing News etc. You are in a VERY tough spot. Very hard to ask Ellis Yo what's with the vet's list after races and the 35% winners with 60 + days rest? How do you skip a G1 after galloping in an allowance? You cant ask him, Ron what was it in the first 48 hours after galloping in an allowance that convinced you and the attending vet that Winstrol was indicated? You just cant, none of these guys would EVER tolerant this scrutiny nor is it your place.

Freddy.. You should listen to the segment again. I did ask him how he approached the campaign and Ellis explained in detail his plan for the whole year including the 2 layoffs with treatments. There's nothing hidden or secretive. And it's clear that he has an approach he's been using and he hasn't run afoul of the rules. And he's certainly going to have to change his approach, especially in light of expanded 6 month exclusion for steroid use.

I don't understand the pretzel-twisting attempt to turn this into something more involved than it is. And there's going to be the positive fallout from it that will likely keep pre-race OCT positives from being able to run.

[gamblin4ever]

If rule of thumb says it takes 20 days for a drug to go thru a horses system, can't the governing boards put a rule in place that you can't give the horse that drug 25 days before race to make sure there is no positive, or a standard set of rules that no drugs given to horses 30 days before race? Just wondering if any standard rule could work or is it wishful thinking.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Where's the apology to me?

I apologize for crediting you with a friend that is not a friend!

Still surprised that your initial reaction was to defend Ellis. Out of character for you since your usual inclination is to look out for the bettor. I think we all agree the bettor was kept in the dark here. I agree that CHRB deserve much scorn but Ellis deserves some also.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

I apologize for having such little respect for myself that I can't even admit what everyone sees, that I am a gutless coward hiding behind the anonymity of the internet to express my jealous frustration over my own failures in life.

If only I could read, then maybe I could figure out what you wrote on another board, which for the above stated reasons, I foolishly dragged to this message board. Once again, I let my own failings in life cloud my already poor personal judgement. Perhaps one day I will learn, and hopefully I can use this as a first step to becoming a better person, while acknowledging I ( clearly ) have a very long way to go.

FTFY.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

FTFY.

What is wrong with you?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

FTFY.

Wow.... Maybe it is you that is miserable cause there is nothing this guy wrote deserving of that kind of outburst. Outrageous and doesn't paint you in a very good light. Were you hacked? Is this Shtick?

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by jms62

Wow.... Maybe it is you that is miserable cause there is nothing this guy wrote deserving of that kind of outburst. Outrageous and doesn't paint you in a very good light. Were you hacked? Is this Shtick?

In his defense there are shots being taken on other boards that appear to be KC.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by RHT2004

In his defense there are shots being taken on other boards that appear to be KC.

They aren't me. I am KidCruz only.