facepalm of the day

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

PP does not sell organs. No medical facility sells organs. It is illegal to sell organs.

Of course, "if the transfer affects interstate commerce." And while the body parts cannot be "sold," the law exempts reasonable payments associated with the transportation, implantation, processing, preservation quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue, and Lamborghini payments. Okay, I added that last part. Because just like Dr. Gatter, I have a sense of humor.
http://thewayfellow.com/2015/07/21/h...w-lamborghini/

Then there's this end around scenario... The research institutes and the abortion clinics have joined with a third party, the fetal tissue wholesaler. The fetal tissue wholesaler pays the abortion clinics a “site fee” to place employees, known as “procurement agents,” who collect various body parts of the aborted fetuses as soon as the abortion process is finished and ship them to various research institutes. By having free access to all the desirable fetal tissue, these agents take the body parts that are requested to various research laboratories and government agencies.

The wholesaler is technically renting the space to harvest the body parts rather than paying for the tissue itself. The abortionist then “donates” the tissues to the wholesalers. At the other end of the transaction, the wholesaler will “donate” the fetal material to researchers but bill them for the cost of retrieval. Thus the business deal is complete and no body parts have been "sold." Yippee, no laws have been broken. Because as Dr. Gatter says, they don't want to be in a position of being accused of selling tissue and stuff like that.

So, do you know if PP kills babies that have been born alive, and receives payment from third party fetal tissue wholesalers who harvest its body parts for sale to researchers?

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Of course, "if the transfer affects interstate commerce." And while the body parts cannot be "sold," the law exempts reasonable payments associated with the transportation, implantation, processing, preservation quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue, and Lamborghini payments. Okay, I added that last part. Because just like Dr. Gatter, I have a sense of humor.
http://thewayfellow.com/2015/07/21/h...w-lamborghini/

Then there's this end around scenario... The research institutes and the abortion clinics have joined with a third party, the fetal tissue wholesaler. The fetal tissue wholesaler pays the abortion clinics a “site fee” to place employees, known as “procurement agents,” who collect various body parts of the aborted fetuses as soon as the abortion process is finished and ship them to various research institutes. By having free access to all the desirable fetal tissue, these agents take the body parts that are requested to various research laboratories and government agencies.

The wholesaler is technically renting the space to harvest the body parts rather than paying for the tissue itself. The abortionist then “donates” the tissues to the wholesalers. At the other end of the transaction, the wholesaler will “donate” the fetal material to researchers but bill them for the cost of retrieval. Thus the business deal is complete and no body parts have been "sold." Yippee, no laws have been broken. Because as Dr. Gatter says, they don't want to be in a position of being accused of selling tissue and stuff like that.

So, do you know if PP kills babies that have been born alive, and receives payment from third party fetal tissue wholesalers who harvest its body parts for sale to researchers?

The seven, count 'em, seven Planned Parenthood clinics that do tissue donation do not make any profit off of fetal tissue donations. If anything, they take a loss on it. At best, they break even.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...ly_making.html

There is no proof of PP doing what you say. The video used stock footage, some dating back to the 1980s, and as for the fetuses in the video, no one knows whether they were second trimester abortions, or whether they were miscarriages or premature births. No. One. Knows. Because they are stock footage. Well, one we do know was a stillbirth, and that crummy organization used it without the mother's permission. Classy. But there is no proof that any of those videos were shot at PP facilities. The most you see of PP is the exterior of some buildings.

Here's something you may not know- most fetuses born prematurely at 20 weeks don't make it. Sometimes they live for a brief period outside their mother, but it doesn't mean they're healthy. A coworker of mine's wife had twin boys at 22 weeks and both lived for about a day before they died.

And, just to be clear- I watched the video. And it's quite graphic. And NONE of the stuff Fiorina says is in the video is in the video. None of it. And the sheer use of voiceover and "he told me..." good grief. Compared to this, PETA's racing sting video is a documentary.

[Danzig]

I hit the lottery saturday night. Im now a multimillionaire.








Not really. But i could have. Which means i did.

[GenuineRisk]

And the source of the moving fetus has been found:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/0...m?detail=email

It was indeed a premature birth, at 19 weeks, and the baby, not surprisingly, did not survive. No tissue or organs were donated after he died.

[casp0555]

Now argue with that call again......

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...yers-in-brazil

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by casp0555

Now argue with that call again......

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...yers-in-brazil

it's like he thinks he's in texas.

[Danzig]

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/donald-tr...rding-analysis

[casp0555]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's like he thinks he's in texas.

ouch....

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

The seven, count 'em, seven Planned Parenthood clinics that do tissue donation do not make any profit off of fetal tissue donations. If anything, they take a loss on it. At best, they break even.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...ly_making.html

So it's PP's loss leader? Taking them at their word, it's all good as long as PP doesn't profit? Okay.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

There is no proof of PP doing what you say.

Which part?

Deborah Nucatola, MD, Senior Director of Medical Services, Planned
Parenthood Federation of America (“PP”)
-Two actors posing as Fetal Tissue Procurement Company (“Buyer”):
http://www.centerformedicalprogress....2514_final.pdf
Buyer: When we were talking saying the $30-$100 price range is per specimen
that were talking about, right?
PP: Per specimen. Yes.
Buyer: And what does per specimen mean for Planned Parenthood? Is that, you
guys consider that, a discrete sample.
PP: One case. One patient, and again, there’s different steps involved too right?
There’s who’s going to consent the patient to donate. It it’s staff, then that’s staff
time, that gets figured into it, as opposed to if there’s someone that’s there, then
it’s just flagging the interested or “eligible” patient and somebody else does the
work.


(Someone like a third party fetal tissue wholesaler?)

Buyer: Yeah. Or especially brain is where it’s actually a big issue, hemispheres
need to be intact, it’s a big deal with neural tissue and the progenitors, because
those are particularly fragile. If you’ve got that in the back of your mind, if you’re
aware of that, technically, how much of a difference can that actually make if you
know kind of what’s expected or what we need, versus—
PP: It makes a huge difference. I’d say a lot of people want liver. And for
that reason, most providers will do this case under ultrasound guidance,
so they’ll know where they’re putting their forceps. The kind of rate-limiting
step of the procedure is the calvarium, the head is basically the biggest
part. Most of the other stuff can come out intact. It’s very rare to have a
patient that doesn’t have enough dilation to evacuate all the other parts
intact.
Buyer: To bring the body cavity out intact and all that?
PP: Exactly. So then you’re just kind of cognizant of where you put your
graspers, you try to intentionally go above and below the thorax, so that,
you know, we’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we
know that, so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m going to basically crush
below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.
And with the calvarium, in general, some people will actually try to change
the presentation so that it’s not vertex, because when it’s vertex
presentation, you never have enough dilation at the beginning of the case,
unless you have real, huge amount of dilation to deliver an intact
calvarium. So if you do it starting from the breech presentation, there’s
dilation that happens as the case goes on, and often, the last, you can
evacuate an intact calvarium at the end. So I mean there are certainly steps
that can be taken to try to ensure—
Buyer: So they can convert to breach, for example, at the start of the—”
PP: Exactly, exactly. Under ultrasound guidance, they can just change the
presentation.

(like in partial birth abortion?)

Buyer: So yesterday was a clinic day. So for example, what did you
procure?
PP: You know I asked her at the beginning of the day what she wanted,
yesterday she wanted, she’s been asking, a lot of people want intact hearts
these days, they’re looking for specific nodes. AV nodes, yesterday I was
like wow, I didn’t even know, good for them. Yesterday was the first time
she said people wanted lungs. And then, like I said, always as many intact
livers as possible. People just want—
Buyer: Yeah, liver is huge right now.
PP: Some people want lower extremities too, which, that’s simple. That’s
easy. I don’t know what they’re doing with it, I guess if they want muscle.
Buyer: Yeah. A dime a dozen.
PP: Mhm.
Buyer: Yeah.
PP: You know, I think it’s good to have—so this is another consideration to
make, because when you do partner with a clinic, you’re probably partnering with
the manager, the owner, the director, you’re not so much having a relationship
with the providers, but I think it helps to have a relationship with the provider,
because if you do, you can have this conversation with them, and you can
say, this is what we’re looking for today, and they’re more apt to—
Buyer: Keep it in the back of their mind.
PP: Absolutely. Of course I want to help. I’d rather this actually get used for
something, so I think, as much as the patients, the providers absolutely want to
help.
Buyer: And so, if it’s something as simple as converting to breech that doesn’t
require a separate consent? Does that make the procedure take longer? Is that
another step for the provider?
PP: No, it’s just what you grab versus what comes out.

[Danzig]

we're to take the word of people with heavily edited videos and made up stuff?
is that what you're saying?
based on what should the people you keep citing be believed? because you agree with them? that's not enough.
how many states have cleared PP now? how many have said they won't even bother because there's nothing?

[Danzig]

and you'd think that if someone had such strong arguments against PP they wouldn't have to resort to such shenanigans:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/congressm...ned-parenthood

of course...

'I'm not sure we need half a billion dollars for women's health issues'

[Danzig]

now, here's a good one:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...e_IA_92215.pdf

Trump's recent comments about President Obama waging a war on Christianity don't hurt
him much with the GOP base. 69% agree with the sentiment that the President has waged
a war on Christianity, with only 17% disagreeing. Trump's probably not hurting himself
too much with his negativity toward Muslims either- only 49% of Republicans think the
religion of Islam should even be legal in the United States with 30% saying it shouldn't
be and 21% not sure. Among Trump voters there is almost even division with 38%
thinking Islam should be allowed and 36% that it should not.



so...these people want religious freedom. and to illegalize islam. that's a facepalm moment for sure.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Danzig

we're to take the word of people with heavily edited videos and made up stuff?
is that what you're saying?
based on what should the people you keep citing be believed?

It's all in the transcripts. The full length videos are online, too. If you can't believe Deborah Nucatola, MD, Senior Director of Medical Services, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, who can you believe?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

It's all in the transcripts. The full length videos are online, too. If you can't believe Deborah Nucatola, MD, Senior Director of Medical Services, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, who can you believe?

You mean the transcripts reported as not truthful? As accurate as the doctored footage?
Hmm, you'd think there'd be an actual case by now. I mean, even missouri said nothing to see. How odd.
Why do you suppose that is?

[Danzig]

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/video-fea...orina-released

keep throwing poo, something bound to stick.


and these groups and their videos seem to all have something in common.

The videos were found to be highly edited, splicing together stock footage with surreptitiously recorded conversations and photos used without permission of the owner

there are cuts in the video that make it difficult to tell definitively what’s happened

in response to questions about the discrepancies she’s largely pivoted to what she says is the bigger issue — that the practice of keeping fetuses alive to harvest their organs does exist, and taxpayers are footing the bill for the practice at Planned Parenthood.

The release of the full Center for Bio-Ethical Reform video does not, however, put the controversy to rest.

There is no sound to the video, and David Daleiden, who created the Center for Medical Progress videos targeting Planned Parenthood, has said he used the clip of the fetus to illustrate a procedure he had been told about by a medical technician, layering the sound of the latter over the visuals of the former. (and isn't this the video of a miscarriage, as confirmed by the mother?)


but...those who wish to believe will do so no matter what.

and will believe there is criminality. when you see PP charged, tried and convicted, come back to me. then we'll talk.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by OldDog

So it's PP's loss leader? Taking them at their word, it's all good as long as PP doesn't profit? Okay.


Which part?

This part, where you said, "Do you know if PP kills babies who have been born alive, and sells their organs?"

The problem with this statement is that you're asking someone to prove a negative. It's a fallacy in informal logic. To use another example, "Do I know if OldDog has non-consensual sex with farm animals?"

There is about as much evidence that OldDog has non-consensual sex with farm animals as there is evidence that "PP kills babies who have been born alive, and sells their organs." One statement is just as ridiculous as the other.

In the long excerpt of dialogue you pasted, the only person who used "harvest" in terms of an organ was the undercover sting person. The PP person didn't say it. The majority of what the PP person said was, if specific tissue is requested, we can tailor, to some extent, how the procedure goes, in an attempt to get the tissue requested.

Of course, what the PP person did say, and which I strongly support, is, "I’d rather this actually get used for something, so I think, as much as the patients, the providers absolutely want to help."

The patients agree to donate the tissue. It can't be done without their consent. Because they think vaccinations and treatments for blindness and diabetes are important.

If you've ever received a polio vaccine, you have personally benefited from fetal tissue research.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

This part, where you said, "Do you know if PP kills babies who have been born alive, and sells their organs?"

The problem with this statement is that you're asking someone to prove a negative. It's a fallacy in informal logic. To use another example, "Do I know if OldDog has non-consensual sex with farm animals?"

There is about as much evidence that OldDog has non-consensual sex with farm animals as there is evidence that "PP kills babies who have been born alive, and sells their organs." One statement is just as ridiculous as the other.

In the long excerpt of dialogue you pasted, the only person who used "harvest" in terms of an organ was the undercover sting person. The PP person didn't say it. The majority of what the PP person said was, if specific tissue is requested, we can tailor, to some extent, how the procedure goes, in an attempt to get the tissue requested.

Of course, what the PP person did say, and which I strongly support, is, "I’d rather this actually get used for something, so I think, as much as the patients, the providers absolutely want to help."

The patients agree to donate the tissue. It can't be done without their consent. Because they think vaccinations and treatments for blindness and diabetes are important.

If you've ever received a polio vaccine, you have personally benefited from fetal tissue research.

and regarding the highlighted part, i believe the mmr vaccine as well.

and here's a cnn article, which discusses that fetal tissue research has gone on since the 30's..and that with advances in stem cell research, lab work, etc, fetal tissue use might be on its way out....but not because it hasn't proved useful. and it definitely has.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and regarding the highlighted part, i believe the mmr vaccine as well.

and here's a cnn article, which discusses that fetal tissue research has gone on since the 30's..and that with advances in stem cell research, lab work, etc, fetal tissue use might be on its way out....but not because it hasn't proved useful. and it definitely has.

And of course none of the right wingers talk about PP's main mission, which is providing health care, regardless of ability to pay. A friend of mine on FB commented when she was laid off from her job, so no health care, and found a lump in her breast (barely a year after her mom died from breast cancer), it was PP that saw her right away and got her in for a mammogram. A friend of her, in the comment thread below her post, said he was raped at 15 and needed HIV testing and a bunch of other medical tests done, and his family was unable to afford anyplace other than Planned Parenthood. He said the PP staff treated him with dignity and provided him with all the services he needed.

This is what the right wingers want to take away from people. Specifically, poor people, because eff the poor, amirite?

[jms62]

You lost me pope

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...-meeting-in-dc

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And of course none of the right wingers talk about PP's main mission, which is providing health care, regardless of ability to pay. A friend of mine on FB commented when she was laid off from her job, so no health care, and found a lump in her breast (barely a year after her mom died from breast cancer), it was PP that saw her right away and got her in for a mammogram. A friend of her, in the comment thread below her post, said he was raped at 15 and needed HIV testing and a bunch of other medical tests done, and his family was unable to afford anyplace other than Planned Parenthood. He said the PP staff treated him with dignity and provided him with all the services he needed.

This is what the right wingers want to take away from people. Specifically, poor people, because eff the poor, amirite?

hey, plenty more serfs to take their place.
seriously, even the CBO showed that if PP lost their funding, it would end up costing taxpayers MORE money than it does now....because someone would have to pick up the slack, and apparently medicaid reimbursement costs more.
but hey, like jeb said, we don't need to spend half a billion bucks on women (he completely disregarded PP providing care to men, too, but i'm sure he hasn't got a problem with money spent on men).