Discreet Cat's Beyer was a 115

Revolution · #1 11-26-2006, 07:52 AM

He got a 115. I find it hard to believe it was only a 115 but the Beyer figures which I used to think were really good are proving to be useless anyway.

Hickory Hill Hoff · #2 11-26-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

He got a 115. I find it hard to believe it was only a 115 but the Beyer figures which I used to think were really good are proving to be useless anyway.

Yes, I expected a bit higher than that, an outdated handicapping tool I guess

NoCarolinaTony · #3 11-26-2006, 08:00 AM

No - the track was playing fast and that he factored in the track variant for the day as previously mentioned by Mr Oracle, which resulted in a lower Beyer than expected. I'm guessing he has the number pretty close to being right , adjusted for variant. I am sure the other speedfigure people will also do something similar.

NC Tony

Danzig · #4 11-26-2006, 08:20 AM

that's actually a pretty good number. they can't all run 120's, 125's! and as has been stated, the track itself was playing very fast. remsen was the fastest in almost 30 years. beyer figures are supposed to take things like that into consideration.
now if he ran a hole in the wind, and no one else, than yes, his beyer should have been much higher.

Revolution · #5 11-26-2006, 10:21 AM

Guess it is actually a 116. Not much difference. Pretty impressive because unlike those deceptive Bernardini efforts where it looks like he was jogging but may have been going all out, there clearly was a little more in the tank of Discreet Cat. Amazing for a 3yr old. Not too many undefeated horses around any longer.

Zaf · #6 11-26-2006, 10:26 AM

The times in the first couple of races on the card were faster than normal. So I guess he adjusted for a race track that was playing faster than normal.

#7 11-26-2006, 10:30 AM

Randall I guess it fell a little short of zapper's Met huh?
The problem with taking this great race at face value based on time was the speed of the surface, and the fact that awarding DC a zapper number would mean that both Badge and Silver Train ran near career bests as well. This was my opinion on why the race wasn't as fast fig wise as the raw time screamers wanted you to believe.
An exceptional performance(especially visually, he had gears, and stopped and started at will, now THAT impresses me more than the time) but Badge and Silver, in my opinion, are not the horses they once were and I had a hard time believing that moster of all figs was run yesterday with both of those getting beat three lengths.
Fig sounds about right, and it was a great performance.

#8 11-26-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

How was there clearly more in the tank, were you riding Discreet Cat? This is getting to be funny.

Oh Lord, DaHoss this is the same guy that lectured us about more being in Bern's tank because of so called hand rides.
Will say this just one more time, because obviously some people don't get it yet.
On a car trip 13 years ago I was listening to a Ragozin seminar on audio tape(I know many and most here use Thorograph, and I'm sure jerry Brown has done the same study, but since I have never heard it I am using Rag semianr I DID hear as point of story), Friedman was the guy doing it and I don't remember much else of teh tape but one thing really stuck and resinated with me that I've used with great success since then in asessing races. I, also, used to watch horses win "eased up" or under hand rides, and say and beleive that the horse would run even faster when pushed.
The Ragozin guys did a study and found that almost all horse ran lifetime tops in these "easy wins". It was a total fallacy that when "pushed" they would run faster.
Easy wins ar a result of optimimum energy distribution, being able to run at the speed you wanna run and moving when you wanna move.
Dc ran a great race yesterday, but he had an ideal setup and was asked to run the last part and thats when he spurted away impressively.
To me the tank was fuilly used, he wasn't going any faster than he did, which is quite fast enough to beat just about anybody in training. But to say he could have gone faster and wasn't used is a joke.

randallscott35 · #9 11-26-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Randall I guess it fell a little short of zapper's Met huh?
The problem with taking this great race at face value based on time was the speed of the surface, and the fact that awarding DC a zapper number would mean that both Badge and Silver Train ran near career bests as well. This was my opinion on why the race wasn't as fast fig wise as the raw time screamers wanted you to believe.
An exceptional performance(especially visually, he had gears, and stopped and started at will, now THAT impresses me more than the time) but Badge and Silver, in my opinion, are not the horses they once were and I had a hard time believing that moster of all figs was run yesterday with both of those getting beat three lengths.
Fig sounds about right, and it was a great performance.

Mike, aren't you the guy who slams Beyers as worthless every chance you get. Let's wait for the Thoro number before you wet your pants.

randallscott35 · #10 11-26-2006, 11:01 AM

Incidently,
Did Zapper ever run a 115 in his 3 yr old season. Nope, Discreet has done it 2 times....But Discreet is not in the air of a Zapper yet and I didn't say he was. I simply put that I thought the performance was Zapperesque. No more, no less. His 4yr old season will show us the way.

#11 11-26-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Mike, aren't you the guy who slams Beyers as worthless every chance you get. Let's wait for the Thoro number before you wet your pants.

Won't be much different in its relation to his previous races.
I think it will be the same number hes been running.
This race was one I had to think about a long time before posting any thoughts on how good it was, and I'm sure mssrs Brown and Ragozin will not be quick to assign the number.
I'm not real big on using the performance of the runners up to make a number on the winner. But in this case the current form of the runners up who were beatn by 3 lengths, and the speed of the track in the one turn races yesterday made it impossible for me to think he'd run a number commensurate with the way people were talking about the race.
Thats not a knock on a great race, far from it.

#12 11-26-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Incidently,
Did Zapper ever run a 115 in his 3 yr old season. Nope, Discreet has done it 2 times....But Discreet is not in the air of a Zapper yet and I didn't say he was. I simply put that I thought the performance was Zapperesque. No more, no less. His 4yr old season will show us the way.

This very well may be the case Randall. He may turn out to be the all time greatest. I'm not saying it isn't possible, because his raw talent is incredible.
But Ghost's Vosburgh was every bit the race that DC's Cigar was, every single bit.

Revolution · #13 11-26-2006, 11:19 AM

Discreet Cat=Undefeated Track Record Holder.

Ghostzapper= Loser to Valid Video and Great Notion.

Valid Video. Great Notion.

Ghost who?

blackthroatedwind · #14 11-26-2006, 11:25 AM

Ghostzapper got a 116 in the Vosburgh as a 3YO.

randallscott35 · #15 11-26-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Ghostzapper got a 116 in the Vosburgh as a 3YO.

Discreet's number in this is a 116 as well. Of course Ghost wasn't giving weight to elders in the Vos, in fact he got a break....But no matter.

Revolution · #16 11-26-2006, 11:28 AM

Discreet Cat goes 5 for 5 next year and retires undefeated and he will join the all-time greats. Ghostzapper is never getting there.

blackthroatedwind · #17 11-26-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Discreet's number in this is a 116 as well. Of course Ghost wasn't giving weight to elders in the Vos, in fact he got a break....But no matter.

Not sure the argument, and I never understood the reluctance to either admit that Ghostzapper was an exceptional animal, or detract from one horse because another is good.

Right now Ghostzapper has Grade 1 wins at 6 1/2 furlongs, one mile, 1 1/8 miles and 1 1/4 miles, each one in exceptionally fast time. Discreet Cat has the opportunity to at least reasonably match that. I think ALL racing fans hope that he at least gets that opportunity. Nothing he does will diminish Ghostzappers accomplishments and awesome performances.

randallscott35 · #18 11-26-2006, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

Discreet Cat goes 5 for 5 next year and retires undefeated and he will join the all-time greats. Ghostzapper is never getting there.

See Ghostzapper is already there, so that's unfair. I venture to say that Discreet is a consistently faster 3 yr old. That's all you can say at this point.

randallscott35 · #19 11-26-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not sure the argument, and I never understood the reluctance to either admit that Ghostzapper was an exceptional animal, or detract from one horse because another is good.

Right now Ghostzapper has Grade 1 wins at 6 1/2 furlongs, one mile, 1 1/8 miles and 1 1/4 miles, each one in exceptionally fast time. Discreet Cat has the opportunity to at least reasonably match that. I think ALL racing fans hope that he at least gets that opportunity. Nothing he does will diminish Ghostzappers accomplishments and awesome performances.

Just pointing it out Andy. As I've said many times on here, I believe Zapper and Mineshaft were the 2 best horses since Spec Bid. Obviously Zapper was a unique and dynamic a horse as you are going to see....And the way Discreet runs is similar at least so far.

Revolution · #20 11-26-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

See Ghostzapper is already there, so that's unfair. I venture to say that Discreet is a consistently faster 3 yr old. That's all you can say at this point.

Ghostzapper retired with a grand total of 4 grade 1 wins in 4 years of racing.

Invasor won that many this year alone.

Discreet Cat will likely finish with 5 or 6 in 3 years of racing. He has to win them though or obviously he is not an all-time great. He would likely win the Dubai Classic, Breeders Cup Classic, Met Mile type race, Whitney, and JCGC and have to beat Invasor to do it all. Not easy, but if he does it, he is an all-time great.