Frankel

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

someone post the replay please

Go to www.racingpost.com

Click on the Frankel story, should have the stretch run.

[freddymo]

Impressive horse.. They seem set on running him at 4.. He rated a bit today also, doesnt even look like he is running fast?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Impressive horse.. They seem set on running him at 4.. He rated a bit today also, doesnt even look like he is running fast?

From the post-race comments, Henry Cecil suddenly seems hellbent on running him at 10f.

Maybe he'll come over for the Hollywood Derby.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Impressive horse.. They seem set on running him at 4.. He rated a bit today also, doesnt even look like he is running fast?

Full race, keep the mute button handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QCKTzBw1w

[King Glorious]

Personally, I couldn't care less if he comes over here. If he ran here, all I'd be doing is watching the race on tv, just as I have his other races so where he races makes no difference. Also, coming over here would not provide him with tougher competition. The horses he's facing there are far superior to what he'd face here. It would be like the Packers winning the Super Bowl but then having to go prove themselves against Michigan.

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that. It would be nice, of course, but not necessary. Can you rate him ahead of a horse like Zarkava, who was able to beat Goldikova at a mile and win the Arc? Ahead of Sea the Stars, who was also versatile enough to win going short and long? My head says no but I do believe that he's good a miler as I've seen and just because they haven't tried something doesn't mean to me that he can't do it. Two races before winning the BC Classic, Ghostzapper had never won at 9f.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Personally, I couldn't care less if he comes over here. If he ran here, all I'd be doing is watching the race on tv, just as I have his other races so where he races makes no difference. Also, coming over here would not provide him with tougher competition. The horses he's facing there are far superior to what he'd face here. It would be like the Packers winning the Super Bowl but then having to go prove themselves against Michigan.

Who exactly has Frankel beaten? Zoffany, who almost tagged him at Ascot, ran last behind Gio Ponti in the Shadwell Mile recently. Excelebration and Dubawi Gold have placed behind Frankel multiple times this year. They're like his Washington Generals. He hasn't faced on Goldikova. He beat Canford Cliffs in the Sussex, but it was fairly evident that one was injured during the running of the race.

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that. It would be nice, of course, but not necessary.

So we should just take it for granted that he would have won the Derby, the Eclipse, the BC Classic, etc. Good stuff.

Can you rate him ahead of a horse like Zarkava, who was able to beat Goldikova at a mile and win the Arc? Ahead of Sea the Stars, who was also versatile enough to win going short and long? My head says no but I do believe that he's good a miler as I've seen and just because they haven't tried something doesn't mean to me that he can't do it. Two races before winning the BC Classic, Ghostzapper had never won at 9f.

This is all an elaborate way of saying King Glorious would have beat Sunday Silence and Easy Goer at 10f, isn't it?

[King Glorious]

You are good at interpreting things the way you want to. There is no point in debating with that. I sure don't think I said he'd win those races but if that's how you take it, that's up to you. All I said is that I dont automatically say that he couldn't have.

And no, I don't think KG would have beaten them at 10f. I think at 9f he could have maybe done it if he was allowed an easy lead. I'm positive he could have done so at 8f. At 10f, if he was lone speed, I would have bet him and hoped for the best but not expected it. Don't know what this has to do with Frankel though.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You are good at interpreting things the way you want to. There is no point in debating with that. I sure don't think I said he'd win those races but if that's how you take it, that's up to you. All I said is that I dont automatically say that he couldn't have.

Fair enough, though I don't think anyone else said he wouldn't have won those races, either. But I bet, unlike you, most would have liked to see him try.

How about the competition issue that you skipped over?

And no, I don't think KG would have beaten them at 10f. I think at 9f he could have maybe done it if he was allowed an easy lead. I'm positive he could have done so at 8f. At 10f, if he was lone speed, I would have bet him and hoped for the best but not expected it. Don't know what this has to do with Frankel though.

On a neutral racetrack King Glorious wouldn't have beaten either horse at 7f, never mind 8f. However, had he faced the other two together, he'd almost certainly take a lot of starch out of Sunday Silence, setting things up perfectly for Easy Goer.

He would have made a good rabbit.

[King Glorious]

Again, you are making incorrect assumptions. I would love to see him try. Don't know why you think me saying I don't NEED to see it is the same as not wanting to see it.

As for the competition, other than Goldikova, he's faced the best over there I think. That Zoffany almost beat him is as inconsequential as Lorenzoni beating Easy Goer, Onion beating Secretariat, Avenging Force beating KG, or Anaabas Creation almost beating Zenyatta. It's racing and strange things happen sometimes.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Again, you are making incorrect assumptions. I would love to see him try. Don't know why you think me saying I don't NEED to see it is the same as not wanting to see it.

Before you start talking in circles, I'll just repeat the most salient point:

I disagree with your assertion that a horse that thus far has only raced at 7f and 8f does not need to run further to prove he can stay 10-12f.

The whole point of racing horses competitively is to eliminate those "shoulda, coulda, woulda" hypotheticals. Hypotheticals that leave horses like King Glorious dangling in limbo as would-be all-time greats, when they're more likely to be no better than Jolie's Halo.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Personally, I couldn't care less if he comes over here. If he ran here, all I'd be doing is watching the race on tv, just as I have his other races so where he races makes no difference. Also, coming over here would not provide him with tougher competition. The horses he's facing there are far superior to what he'd face here. It would be like the Packers winning the Super Bowl but then having to go prove themselves against Michigan.

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that. It would be nice, of course, but not necessary. Can you rate him ahead of a horse like Zarkava, who was able to beat Goldikova at a mile and win the Arc? Ahead of Sea the Stars, who was also versatile enough to win going short and long? My head says no but I do believe that he's good a miler as I've seen and just because they haven't tried something doesn't mean to me that he can't do it. Two races before winning the BC Classic, Ghostzapper had never won at 9f.

of course he has to run successfully at 10f to prove he could. otherwise it's pure speculation. if he never tries, there's a reason for it.

[King Glorious]

GAnd I disagree with your assertion that racing is about proving who can stay a long distance of ground. Just as with human runners, there are all kinds of different types. Usain Bolt doesn't have to prove he can run a marathon to still be one of the best sprinters in history. I think there is something to being the best in the world at what you do. You prefer the stayers and that's fine. But that doesn't make everyone that likes sprinters or milers wrong. Just different opinions. Michael Jordan couldn't do what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could do and vice versa but that doesn't mean that they both weren't all-time greats.

He wouldn't need to beat Nathaniel at 10-12f any more than Nathaniel would need to beat him at 7-8f. Either of them doing so would ADD to their greatness but neither loses anything by not doing it.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

of course he has to run successfully at 10f to prove he could. otherwise it's pure speculation. if he never tries, there's a reason for it.

Of course he'd have to do it to prove he could. That much is obvious. Again, I've never said he could. I don't know either way. All I said was that there was no proof that he couldn't.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

And I disagree with your assertion that racing is about proving who can stay a long distance of ground. You prefer the stayers and that's fine.

Of course, I said nothing of the sort.

And you certainly didn't make it clear in your original post that you were only stating that Frankel was a great miler. I suspect a change of tune, to be perfectly honest.

Nevertheless, I apologize if I misinterpreted:

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that.

...to mean that Frankel should be credited with stamina he hasn't displayed in a sanctioned race.

I guess the allusion to Ghostzapper threw me off.

[King Glorious]

I can see how that was taken that way but it wasn't what I meant. What I meant is that I think he is a top class runner and could perform well going further. It's my belief that he'd do very well going 10f but I'm far less optimistic about 12f. While this is just my belief, I offer no proof that he could.....because their is none. There is also no proof that he couldn't and I don't think saying because they haven't tried it yet offers proof that he can't. The GZ reference was because I remembered hearing the same kind of things before he stretched out. I think that great horses do things that don't fall into the ordinary and I think Frankel is a great horse who's legend or reputation would be enhanced by beating top horses going longer but will still be that of a top class horse, at least in my mind, even if he never races past 8f.

[brockguy]

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse...n-qeii/932495/

Frankel got the joint highest Racing Post Rating ever after today's race. To be honest, I didnt think it was THAT good. I am always a little bit skeptical when they justify the winner's huge rating by giving the runner up a fairly big mark as well. While Excelebration is OK, I dont think he is as good as the ratings suggest.


I remember when Sea The Stars was winning, the handicappers were giving ridiculous ratings to horses like Fame and Glory and Rip Van Winkle who were decent but nothing brilliant.

It will be great to see him next year though (fingers crossed). I just hope the prospect of an unbeaten horse doesn't prevent them from showing everyone what Frankel can actually do. I would absolutely love to see him do something like Queen Anne - Eclipse - Juddmonte - Arc - Breeders Cup Classic next year but I dont think they will be that maverick..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Of course he'd have to do it to prove he could. That much is obvious. Again, I've never said he could. I don't know either way. All I said was that there was no proof that he couldn't.

'The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that.'

i guess i misunderstood your point here. whatever.

[brockguy]

By far the best horse I've seen - looks even better this year - beat a race fir Excelebration by more than he did last year - what everyone really wants is for him to face off v Black Caviar or Cirrus Des Aigles to see just how unbelievable he is!!

[South Beach Luv]

I thought Mark Johnson summed it up nicely: "It really looked like a stallion taking on a little foal as they entered the final two furlongs"

[NTamm1215]

That horse is unbelievable. He made a mockery of the Queen Anne.