La Troienne discussion

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You really think Pletcher is going to take Borel off of Super Saver at some point? The guy just put an absolutely perfect ride on the horse not in a N1X, in the Kentucky Derby. It's one thing for Borel to opt to ride a different horse but the chances of TAP taking him off Super Saver are virtually non-existent in my opinion.

NT

he does put on a good ride in the derby, I would put Borel on any horse in the derby if I had the chance, because he has an uncanny knack of putting the horse in the right position.

Look, Pletcher won't change the rider at this point, I'm just saying that outside of CD, I don't see the same kind of advantage to using Borel.
In fact I think he was instrumental in losing the Preakness on Street Sense, he has said as much.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A figure 8 is not a signifigant change of equipment. Figure 8's do not reduce pulling by a thoroughbred racehorse. As a matter of fact a figure 8 can do the opposite but in most cases it really doesnt do much of anything except make trainer feel like they have done something.

What you are looking for is the real reasoning behind the change which is not necessarily the same as what would be given in public

My wife disagrees with this... and I've always known it to be something to "gather" the horse so they don't run off and jump off the bit. Maybe it doesn't matter as much in a racehorse since you're not interacting with the horse through the bit as much.

I know it's not a huge change, and as you said we will never know what the change was for.

[CSC]

Isn't there an unwritten rule in horseracing you DO NOT replace a rider on a winning mount until they actually have lost? If it has happened during the triple crown series this would be a great trivia question.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

My wife disagrees with this... and I've always known it to be something to "gather" the horse so they don't run off and jump off the bit. Maybe it doesn't matter as much in a racehorse since you're not interacting with the horse through the bit as much.

I know it's not a huge change, and as you said we will never know what the change was for.

There isnt much gathering done at 38mph.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Forget about this RA filly … Z is WAY beyond that now.


Time to start comparing her to horses like, say, Citation and Cigar



17 – 0


Legend

this is really starting to go too far.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

he does put on a good ride in the derby, I would put Borel on any horse in the derby if I had the chance, because he has an uncanny knack of putting the horse in the right position.

Look, Pletcher won't change the rider at this point, I'm just saying that outside of CD, I don't see the same kind of advantage to using Borel.
In fact I think he was instrumental in losing the Preakness on Street Sense, he has said as much.

He was also quite detrimental for Mine That Bird in the Belmont last year but the point I was making is that Borel is going to be given plenty of leeway by the Pletcher barn.

Borel had ridden sparingly for Pletcher in the past but gave Ready's Echo a pretty nice ride in both the Forego and BC "Dirt" Mile, so the barn has seemingly had positive experiences using him over the last six or eight months.

NT

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A figure 8 is not a signifigant change of equipment. Figure 8's do not reduce pulling by a thoroughbred racehorse. As a matter of fact a figure 8 can do the opposite but in most cases it really doesnt do much of anything except make trainer feel like they have done something.

What you are looking for is the real reasoning behind the change which is not necessarily the same as what would be given in public

Doen't Ass use this on all his horses whether they need it or not..Like Pletcher and his drop nosebands.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Doen't Ass use this on all his horses whether they need it or not..Like Pletcher and his drop nosebands.

Pretty much. That and the neck strap. Nick zito and the small shadow rolls. Mack Miller and the big shadow rolls.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A figure 8 is not a signifigant change of equipment. Figure 8's do not reduce pulling by a thoroughbred racehorse. As a matter of fact a figure 8 can do the opposite but in most cases it really doesnt do much of anything except make trainer feel like they have done something.

What you are looking for is the real reasoning behind the change which is not necessarily the same as what would be given in public

Chuck...what would be the reason a trainer would make a change to a figure 8? What is it supposed to accomplish?

[Indian Charlie]

The funny thing is Danzig, RA's last race would still probably beat 'Big Z'.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Chuck...what would be the reason a trainer would make a change to a figure 8? What is it supposed to accomplish?

Generally a figure 8 is used for a horse that flips its palate. As Outofthebox said he uses it on a lot of horses and in attempting to get her rate perhaps he was worried about holding her hard and her flipping her palate? That is just speculation, I have no inside knowledge of why he made the change. But in my experience I can't ever remember a horse running worse because they wore a figure 8 though it has helped some run better. A tongue tie is the most signifigant equip change that isnt reported. Nosebands, fig8's, shadow rolls,drop nosebands, etc can all be helpful to a degree but arent that signifigant. Now the type of bit in the horses mouth can be a big positive or negative but is too broad of a subject to accurately discuss here. While I understand people wondering if it has made a difference in her performance, I have a hardtime making the connection.

[Duvalier]

Thanks

[3kings]

Originally Posted by philcski

My wife disagrees with this... and I've always known it to be something to "gather" the horse so they don't run off and jump off the bit. Maybe it doesn't matter as much in a racehorse since you're not interacting with the horse through the bit as much.

I know it's not a huge change, and as you said we will never know what the change was for.

Phil, I know we havn't met so this may be inappropriate but your wife prefers the figure 8? If you are going in that direction you may have to move this to the esoteric section.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Generally a figure 8 is used for a horse that flips its palate. As Outofthebox said he uses it on a lot of horses and in attempting to get her rate perhaps he was worried about holding her hard and her flipping her palate? That is just speculation, I have no inside knowledge of why he made the change. But in my experience I can't ever remember a horse running worse because they wore a figure 8 though it has helped some run better. A tongue tie is the most signifigant equip change that isnt reported. Nosebands, fig8's, shadow rolls,drop nosebands, etc can all be helpful to a degree but arent that signifigant. Now the type of bit in the horses mouth can be a big positive or negative but is too broad of a subject to accurately discuss here. While I understand people wondering if it has made a difference in her performance, I have a hardtime making the connection.

In other equine disciplines, the figure eight is used to keep a horse " on the bit ", that is to aid in the mouth closing so the bit may be retained in the proper position for control and to prevent the horse from " blowing " through it .

Figure eights are usually hunter/jumper nosebands .

The flash noseband seems to have superceded the dropped noseband for general purposes and especially in dressage, where the figure eight is not legal to show in ..

They both serve the same purpose as the figure eight .

The only conceivable difference it could make in her performance is to give the rider a better more effective contact with the mouth and a little more control --it certainly would not move her up or down length wise, though I have heard from a few self-proclaimed experts that the figure eight helps the horse breathe better and opens the nostrils !!!

I have however, seen Rachel go in a ring bit with and without the figure eight, and that is a strong bit .

I have also seen her with Borel up in a plain loose ring or eggbutt snaffle and no noseband at all from last year .

I would think that a ring bit and a figure eight combined would be a lot of brake, but I have seen that combo at the track, and I believe Rachel wore that at least once this year racing.

I also have a hard time believing this change of equipment could negatively impact her racing, but I have seen some of her workouts from this year and most notably from last year before the Oaks when she ran off with her rider, mouth wide open ,evading the bit and very rank .

Perhaps this would suggest why the figure eight was added .

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The funny thing is Danzig, RA's last race would still probably beat 'Big Z'.

in what galaxy? peter pan land...she didn't run at arkansas because she was worried about be fair.....yeah, ok...i'd be waiting for the retirement announcement.

[Indian Charlie]

This galaxy.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

This galaxy.

She ran a -1 1/4 and a -1 3/4 on TG's last two. That's pretty strong, even though she was 5w2w and 4w3w it still seems a bit aggressive to me, even though it fits with the rest of the card- it gives the winner a 3 point new top.

[Smooth Operator]

Z's been making monkeys out of guys like IC for a long time now, johnny.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Z's been making monkeys out of guys like IC for a long time now, johnny.

Yeah. At least I need help from a horse to make a monkey out of me.

You can go solo when making an ass out of yourself.

[asudevil]

This is all real boring. Love Steve and ATR...losing for my fondness for DT.