I believe the only three

[Travis Stone]

Look what Forested did to the Tri payoff which would be unheard of in my opinion with longshots being overbet now-a-days in big events.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

so you go to Steve Haskin, who might as well be the leader of the pretty pony club....I am sure he is a nice guy but he is kind of like the media and Obama, he wont criticize racing.

What do guys like Crist, Beyer, etc say. It was an "ok" field.

What would you like Haskin to do?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Lakeway, Serena's Song

basically no ones i guess

I'll give you Serena's Song only because she was a gamer that campaigned hard that won her share of races, but in fairness she also had a hard time beating Flanders and Jewell Princess when it counted, and she wasn't able to beat top males like Smart Strike in the Islin whom Cigar dismantled a race later that yr. A very good horse but she wasn't in the same class of Cigar.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

says the guys who says zenyatta would beat rachel IF rachel ran in such and such race.

blanket assumption at its best

Works both ways doesn't it? RA could have run in the Classic if they chose to. Yes, no?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

What would you like Haskin to do?

not be a cheerleader

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Lakeway, Serena's Song

basically no ones i guess

Don't forget Mariah's Storm (the dam of Giant's Causeway) .. who soundly beat Serena's Song with a 120 Beyer two months earlier.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Pat Biancone sent Triptych in 1986 (6th behind Skywalker)..

That was a little before my time. Too young to remember.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Its easy to say after the fact that this field was "weak",

I probably said VERY weak before the fact ... and if I didn't ... I assumed it was so obvious that everyone would know.

Calling it weak by past Breeders Cup Classic standards...would be very, very, very kind.

Originally Posted by smuthg

but as late as last week, people were making arguments that Rip "would have eclipsed Sea the Stars"

Rip Van Winkle ran 3/5ths of a second faster than 2yo's in his last race .. and that was at his best distance.

Originally Posted by smuthg

and no one know what to expect from Quality Road, Summer Bird or Gio Ponti, etc., on the Pro Ride,

Gio Ponti ran twice on Santa Anita's Pro Ride before. He finished 5th behind Cowboy Cal in his most recent try over it in the Strub Stakes.

Quality Road and Summer Bird would have been DOMINANT favorites if the race was run on dirt. It wasn't ... that's why they weren't being bet.

I don't think you can defend last year's field or even the 2005 field as any better than than this one...

Those two were also weak.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

You just can't make a blanket assumption like this because we should know by now some horses run to their competition, this was the danger of underestimating Zenyatta prior to the Classic.

Horses don't run to their competiton.

If you put Zenyatta in with claimers ... she would bury them by a wide margin.

Both her and Life Is Sweet were against unfavorable paces in their preps - they both got more distance to work with, more pace to set them up, and their trainer had them both peaking at the right time.

Running to competition is sillyness. You don't have to bet very long to figure that out.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Horses don't run to their competiton.

If you put Zenyatta in with claimers ... she would bury them by a wide margin.

Both her and Life Is Sweet were against unfavorable paces in their preps - they both got more distance to work with, more pace to set them up, and their trainer had them both peaking at the right time.

Running to competition is sillyness. You don't have to bet very long to figure that out.

While it is obvious that Zenyatta would bury a bunch of claimers this is an extreme case mind you, jockies ride differently to different races and competition, it's just impossible to know or say II would have beaten Cigar at a different distance and a different time of the day when the track was drying out because conditions and race dynamics were not identical. It has been said Zenyatta does as much as she needs to win, I would surmise Cigar was also this way, to illustrate this I remember Kent D saying once after a race Cigar beat him in about Bailey on Cigar, he could only wonder if Bailey would finally let Cigar go how fast could he really run, but Bailey's thinking was he was looking at the big picture down the road and he only asked what was required of Cigar to win. Hogwash or sincerity it's up to everyone to decide. But I think Cigar was one of those horses who only did what was required of him to win in 95. Looking at Zenyatta after last weekend, one can see a similarity in the 2 styles where beyerwise they may have looked suspect on the surface.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Don't forget Mariah's Storm (the dam of Giant's Causeway) .. who soundly beat Serena's Song with a 120 Beyer two months earlier.

She was special.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

While it is obvious that Zenyatta would bury a bunch of claimers this is an extreme case mind you, jockies ride differently to different races and competition, it's just impossible to know or say II would have beaten Cigar at a different distance and a different time of the day when the track was drying out because conditions and race dynamics were not identical. It has been said Zenyatta does as much as she needs to win, I would surmise Cigar was also this way, to illustrate this I remember Kent D saying once after a race Cigar beat him in about Bailey on Cigar, he could only wonder if Bailey would finally let Cigar go how fast could he really run, but Bailey's thinking was he was looking at the big picture down the road and he only asked what was required of Cigar to win. Hogwash or sincerity it's up to everyone to decide. But I think Cigar was one of those horses who only did what was required of him to win in 95. Looking at Zenyatta after last weekend, one can see a similarity in the 2 styles where beyerwise they may have looked suspect on the surface.

Cigar dominated and blew out fields ... Bailey was whipping and driving him in the Classic when he won as well. Cigar was also a very fast speed figure horse... and a very consistant speed figure horse. His competition certainly wasn't much though .. and some real epic female horses were around during his run of dominance.

Don't listen to jockeys ... they are just as brutal as trainers... if not more.

It may not show in win percentages, but Cannon Shell is like the Albert Einstein of horse trainers... and I try my hardest not to listen to him most of the time.

[GenuineRisk]

Like Sightseek, I've seen a lot of articles using superlatives to describe Zenyatta's challengers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/sp...enyatta&st=cse

("As she was awaiting the start of the Breeders’ Cup Classic, against the best male horses in the world at a distance she had never run, did she suddenly not want to race?")

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...ition_in_.html

("So it was Zenyatta against the boys Saturday, a terrific bunch, a 13-horse field, 10 Grade I winners (that means they've had at least one good day).")

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009...n-breeders-cup

("The end is the only place to start when considering the Breeders' Cup card at Santa Anita today. The Classic, with a purse of $5m, is, as the Americans put it, the "deepest" for years, in terms of the sheer number of high-class horses declared to run in the race.")

I saw a few deeper, deepest, strongest ones, too, but I can't find them easily.

Ah, the media. It's not enough that she was the first female to win it, and the first horse to win two different Breeders Cup races, and won Saturday after a pretty sucky start, you have to plump up the field's credentials, too?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Like Sightseek, I've seen a lot of articles using superlatives to describe Zenyatta's challengers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/sp...enyatta&st=cse

("As she was awaiting the start of the Breeders’ Cup Classic, against the best male horses in the world at a distance she had never run, did she suddenly not want to race?")

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...ition_in_.html

("So it was Zenyatta against the boys Saturday, a terrific bunch, a 13-horse field, 10 Grade I winners (that means they've had at least one good day).")

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009...n-breeders-cup

("The end is the only place to start when considering the Breeders' Cup card at Santa Anita today. The Classic, with a purse of $5m, is, as the Americans put it, the "deepest" for years, in terms of the sheer number of high-class horses declared to run in the race.")

I saw a few deeper, deepest, strongest ones, too, but I can't find them easily.

Ah, the media. It's not enough that she was the first female to win it, and the first horse to win two different Breeders Cup races, and won Saturday after a pretty sucky start, you have to plump up the field's credentials, too?

what were the better fields assembled this year?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Ah, the media. It's not enough that she was the first female to win it, and the first horse to win two different Breeders Cup races, and won Saturday after a pretty sucky start, you have to plump up the field's credentials, too?

They are amazing aren't they.

When you read a lot of that silly stuff you get from the racing press ... it's pretty easy to see why guys like Andy Beyer and Steve Crist are as great as they are.

With those two .. you're talking about guys who are both excellent writers and have a great understanding of the sport in terms of both racing and gambling.

Those two names are company I never have to worry about keeping ... because I couldn't pass a 10th grade English class and only can get hired as a small fry racing writer because of my ability in other areas.

It's the exact opposite with a lot of the guys you see writing on racing ... they're very good writers in a lot of cases ... but they don't really understand racing. Some of them out and out have no idea what they're talking about.

You do also have some that are very good writers/handicappers that have a good understanding of racing .. but have a less than stellar understanding of the betting aspect.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

what were the better fields assembled this year?

The field Rachel Alexandra crushed in the Haskell stacks up well enough for spots 2 thorugh 4.

Summer Bird was 2nd ... he's obviously a better dirt horse.

Munning was 3rd ... Very nice horse who was in sharp form.

Papa Clem was 4th .. he won the Arkansas Derby over Old Fashioned and Summer Bird. Ran 4th in the Ky Derby.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The field Rachel Alexandra crushed in the Haskell stacks up well enough for spots 2 thorugh 4.

Summer Bird was 2nd ... he's obviously a better dirt horse.

Munning was 3rd ... Very nice horse who was in sharp form.

Papa Clem was 4th .. he won the Arkansas Derby over Old Fashioned and Summer Bird. Ran 4th in the Ky Derby.

yea, I would take a horse like Papa Clem over Einstein any day of the week and twice on sunday.

They can run on dirt, 10 furlongs, and I will take the euro over munnings.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think Papa Clem could have beat Einstein the way he ran on Saturday.

Charlie Weiss might have been able to outrun him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

She was special.

Right about now, I feel like saying that about you too.

[Indian Charlie]

Am I the only one who saw the BC classic and thought that Denman was out of his freaking mind saying what he did?

Her race certainly wasn't a bad one, but man, he went wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overboard.

I have seen much better performances than that one. Even this year I have!