There's no stars in racing? Is that right?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

That would be the only blemish in his career, alot of fans would probably be surprised to look at his career numbers, I expect Joe Morgan's name to be included in the discussion and his and Alomar's numbers are very close. However I would give the edge to Alomar. The one thing about Alomar is he played his best yrs in Canada and Joe played for the Big Red Machine, Alomar won multiple golden gloves, could beat you with his glove, bat, or on the bases. Seriously other than spitting on an Umpire, he should be a guaranteed 1st ballot Hall of famer.

Morgan was a better player IMO.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Joe Morgan? He gets dismissed for actually not being as great as he was made out to be and more importantly, for being the absolute worst baseball announcer in the history of the game. I'd take Alomar over Joe Morgan 13 times out of 10. Alomar isn't going to be a first ballot HOFer not because of the spitting incident, but because of the way his career ended. There was no denouement; just crash and burn.

He was great and I despised the Big Red machine.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Moments like this lead me to believe glasses are in order........lol. Look who I thought you were referring to.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/...ayer_id=466320

Thus my response of horror.....Melky and Orlando are a bit different animals I needed to laugh this afternoon as some of what I have seen today is beyond repulsive.

Melky can be a bit repulsive

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Who's pretending? And I think this is the crux... Your passion for the game, and Chuck's, pre-dates mine by a good 10-15 years. While I remember the truly great horses that you are holding up to today's horses for scrutiny, I don't require that today's best be as good as them. I find Proud Spell and Music Note battling to the wire in the Alabama earning 101 Beyers every bit as exciting as Heavenly Prize earning a 111 over Lakeway. Would Proud Spell or Music Note beat Mom's Command? Or Open Mind or Maplejinsky or Go For Wand? No... But that's OK for me personally.

This is a great discussion. And my underlying issue partially is that since the vast majority of younger fans can only relate to what they see, it doesn't serve much benefit to abjectly belittle what they are embracing as great in their time.

The objective is to appreciate the modern 'stars' while educating the unenlightened or neophyte as to why Rachel Alexandra and Curlin aren't even in the Top 50 All Time let alone among the Top 10 or 20. (Which brings up the issue of who is going to handle the assignment with Jess Jackson?)

While there are still great races, cards, days, etc. the quality of top horses simply doesnt match up anymore in most cases. It is like saying that that a triple A game is the same as a major league game because the score was close. Both may be entertaining events that you had a good time watching (or even betting on) but when push comes to shove you know that the AAA game isnt the same as the majors. Horses like Einstein, while nice horses that are versatile and game, simply arent much better than AAA all stars posing as major leaguers. He and Commentator are far from great horses yet have had longevity which allows them to add to the their list of accomplishments against other less than stellar competition (for the most part) but have never been considered or done anything truly extraordinary. Our society loves lists and all time greats and other rankings. Racings current problem is that historically the modern "stars" simply dont measure up no matter how hard we try to accept the new reality of horseracing.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And my underlying issue partially is that since the vast majority of younger fans can only relate to what they see, it doesn't serve much benefit to abjectly belittle what they are embracing as great in their time.

That's why they need to watch the older races and get an appreciation for the great stars of the past.. If they are only exposed to what's happening now.. they'll have a very flawed view of what greatness in racing is..

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You know from personal observation?

No, but even considering the changes in eras, I don't see how anybody could logically argue that Phil Rizzuto, Johnny Evers, or Bid McPhee were truly HOF caliber players.

[satan's twin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While there are still great races, cards, days, etc. the quality of top horses simply doesnt match up anymore in most cases. It is like saying that that a triple A game is the same as a major league game because the score was close. Both may be entertaining events that you had a good time watching (or even betting on) but when push comes to shove you know that the AAA game isnt the same as the majors. Horses like Einstein, while nice horses that are versatile and game, simply arent much better than AAA all stars posing as major leaguers. He and Commentator are far from great horses yet have had longevity which allows them to add to the their list of accomplishments against other less than stellar competition (for the most part) but have never been considered or done anything truly extraordinary. Our society loves lists and all time greats and other rankings. Racings current problem is that historically the modern "stars" simply dont measure up no matter how hard we try to accept the new reality of horseracing.

All I know is that Bob Gibson would have struck out Skip Away every time he faced him.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Who's pretending? And I think this is the crux... Your passion for the game, and Chuck's, pre-dates mine by a good 10-15 years. While I remember the truly great horses that you are holding up to today's horses for scrutiny, I don't require that today's best be as good as them. I find Proud Spell and Music Note battling to the wire in the Alabama earning 101 Beyers every bit as exciting as Heavenly Prize earning a 111 over Lakeway. Would Proud Spell or Music Note beat Mom's Command? Or Open Mind or Maplejinsky or Go For Wand? No... But that's OK for me personally.

This is a great discussion. And my underlying issue partially is that since the vast majority of younger fans can only relate to what they see, it doesn't serve much benefit to abjectly belittle what they are embracing as great in their time.

The objective is to appreciate the modern 'stars' while educating the unenlightened or neophyte as to why Rachel Alexandra and Curlin aren't even in the Top 50 All Time let alone among the Top 10 or 20. (Which brings up the issue of who is going to handle the assignment with Jess Jackson?)

Who's pretending? Should I submit the list?

I understand what you're saying, and don't completely disagree ( last year's Alabama was as good as it gets from a lot of perspectives ). However, it would be nice if people had a better sense of history.

Come on, Steve, you were as outraged as anyone when Jess Jackson was talking about Curlin being the best of all time. You have to be slightly less subjective and look at the bigger picture.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

No, but even considering the changes in eras, I don't see how anybody could logically argue that Phil Rizzuto, Johnny Evers, or Bid McPhee were truly HOF caliber players.

True but i thought maybe you were really old

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by satan's twin

All I know is that Bob Gibson would have struck out Skip Away every time he faced him.

He may have plunked him a few times too

Originally Posted by Cardus

You're out of your friggin' mind. Did you see Summer Bird's explosive last furlong? He would have done OK against Secretariat. He wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been the drowning of all drownings.

And, if Mine That Bird had those ridiculous (1:09 4/5 and 1:20 and change) fractions to close into, who knows what could have happened if he ran in the 1973 Belmont?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Horses in the headlines of DRF this morning. But there aren't any stars in the game...

KIP DEVILLE: Back for the Poker..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104573.html

Also featured in Grening's report.. Benny the Bull, Driven By Success, Lime Rickey..


COMMENTATOR: Prepping for the Whitney..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104549.html


INDIAN BLESSING: Prepping for the A Gleam..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104587.html

Also featured in Anderson's report.. Obrigado (22nd stake start in last 24 outsings), Life is Sweet..


EINSTEIN: Looking for third surface Gr. I in a row..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104568.html

Also featured in the McGee piece.. International star Asiatic Boy makes his North American debut..


MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html

Commentator is a laimo with a lot of talent.

Einstein wouldn't win a nice listed race in Europe nevermind a Group 3

Kip Deville is the Okie bred version of Lure I guess lol

Music Note is a plodding slug

Indian Blessing is certainly a worthy G1 filly and a pleasure to watch

Get a grip Steve this a a sorry list.. You forgot Premium Tap and Grasshopper..How could you?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

You're out of your friggin' mind. Did you see Summer Bird's explosive last furlong? He would have done OK against Secretariat. He wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been the drowning of all drownings.

And, if Mine That Bird had those ridiculous (1:09 4/5 and 1:20 and change) fractions to close into, who knows what could have happened if he ran in the 1973 Belmont?

as for the latter, i'm thinking secretariat would have still won by 31.


there are two things todays horses have in common with the best ever. ancestry, and having four legs.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Commentator is a laimo with a lot of talent.

Einstein wouldn't win a nice listed race in Europe nevermind a Group 3

Kip Deville is the Okie bred version of Lure I guess lol

Music Note is a plodding slug

Indian Blessing is certainly a worthy G1 filly and a pleasure to watch

Get a grip Steve this a a sorry list.. You forgot Premium Tap and Grasshopper..How could you?

Freddy, do you have any hobbies that you actually enjoy? Besides call girls I mean...

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Freddy, do you have any hobbies that you actually enjoy? Besides call girls I mean...

Do you realize I listen to 12 plus hours of ATR a week watch at least 40 races a day.. I love racing as much as anyone Steve. Your love for the game is wonderful as is many of us.. How you can think that list represents anything special is disheartening. Could Einstein get with in 15 lengths of Candy Ride, Would Music Note be close to a Winning Colors. Kip Keno couldn't have qualified for the BC mile in 87..Miesque would have been hosed down before he got to the wire.. Come on and tell it like it is.. Racing hasn't had a real star that wasn't Media made in a while.. Mind you I loved Smarty to death but even he was a bit of a paper tiger.

Best horse I have seen in a while is Zarkava..Now that filly was a star

[ninetoone]

I agree with Steve. The "I was there" card is cool the first few times, and then it just gets old...and makes whoever's saying it seem old too. We get it, the newer horses can never compare to the old....move on already. Some of us appreciate the history, and there's always going to be the wing nuts that think the latest horse is the "best ever", without a clue as to the history of what they're talking about. Educating the younger fans (in a nice way) is the way to go, instead of alienating them...JMO.

[King Glorious]

All I can say is that when the NFL went on strike some years ago and they played a few games with replacement players, I watched but I didn't pretend that the players were anywhere near the level of the NFL guys. I wasn't going to sit there and appreciate them for what they were, accept that they were as good as we had at the moment, and be happy with it. We want to see the best. Simple as that. You can't argue in one breath that we can't compare the horses of today to the horses of yesteryear because they aren't as good as they used to be and we should just embrace what we have......then in the next breath argue that we shouldn't change the TC because it should be as it always has been and we shouldn't accept a watered down champion. Which way do you want it? If you are acknowledging that the good horses of today aren't as good as they used to be, why are you so intent on continuing to ask them to do the same things as those before? If you are going to hold the Big Brown's and Mine that Bird's to the same standards as the Secretariat's and Affirmed's, then how can you fault us for holding the champions of today to the same standards as the champions of the past? People argue that you can't change the TC because of tradition but then you are telling us to forget the past and accept them for what they are today.

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente

have you completely lost your mind? Roberto was clutch!

i love Einstein! he just shows up and runs his guts out. does whatever he has to, to win. he's star that should be promoted as one.
we can remember the old days but try to root for the stars we have now. or try to make new stars.

[ninetoone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

All I can say is that when the NFL went on strike some years ago and they played a few games with replacement players, I watched but I didn't pretend that the players were anywhere near the level of the NFL guys. I wasn't going to sit there and appreciate them for what they were, accept that they were as good as we had at the moment, and be happy with it. We want to see the best. Simple as that. You can't argue in one breath that we can't compare the horses of today to the horses of yesteryear because they aren't as good as they used to be and we should just embrace what we have......then in the next breath argue that we shouldn't change the TC because it should be as it always has been and we shouldn't accept a watered down champion. Which way do you want it? If you are acknowledging that the good horses of today aren't as good as they used to be, why are you so intent on continuing to ask them to do the same things as those before? If you are going to hold the Big Brown's and Mine that Bird's to the same standards as the Secretariat's and Affirmed's, then how can you fault us for holding the champions of today to the same standards as the champions of the past? People argue that you can't change the TC because of tradition but then you are telling us to forget the past and accept them for what they are today.

I hope the NFL goes on strike again. Maybe the Skins can win another Superbowl.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Do you realize I listen to 12 plus hours of ATR a week watch at least 40 races a day.. I love racing as much as anyone Steve. Your love for the game is wonderful as is many of us.. How you can think that list represents anything special is disheartening. Could Einstein get with in 15 lengths of Candy Ride, Would Music Note be close to a Winning Colors. Kip Keno couldn't have qualified for the BC mile in 87..Miesque would have been hosed down before he got to the wire.. Come on and tell it like it is.. Racing hasn't had a real star that wasn't Media made in a while.. Mind you I loved Smarty to death but even he was a bit of a paper tiger.

Best horse I have seen in a while is Zarkava..Now that filly was a star

It doesn't bother me that the best now are 10 lengths short of the best then. That list represents a variety of horses that have stuck around, have very credible resumes and fan recognition. They all meet criteria to be a star runner in today's environment. What they are versus the best of yesteryear isn't germane to the initial point being made.

Just because nothing I see in the theater these days holds a candle to the eras that produced Citizen Kane, Gone With the Wind, The Bicycle Thief, All About Eve or Sweet Smell of Success doesn't mean there haven't been good films made since that were enjoyable.

The experience of the moment is as good as you choose to make it. And I know you love racing...