Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and people wonder why some cheat-look at the constant harping on pletcher right now. maybe he wasn't clean, and is now-if so, good for him. or maybe he was clean all along, but had better stock. or maybe he sold his soul, and then changed his mind. who knows?
but i think it's bizarre that he gets tons of grief, with what-two positives now, one for an antiboiotic, the other for a level now legal? meanwhile, the man with 13 X's more the positives is said to be the eclipse fave, and no one says a thing.

He's held to his own standard because he's the poster boy for racing. If he walked through a crowd at Saratoga 90% of racing fans would know who he is. Gary Sherlock has won just as many G1's this year as Todd but no one would know who he is. It'd be like a revelation that Tiger Woods uses steroids or illegal golf balls.

You know that Assman is universally reviled on this board and pretty much everywhere else.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by reese

The violation is cut and dry...horse tested and was positive for procaine in CA.

All racing venues support violations handed down by other tracks. NY supported CA's finding of "an overage of procaine" Pletcher is appealing via Papianio in CA.

IF, IF you read the article re Plertcher's violation(which obviously you didn't
because YOU are commenting when you are UNINFORMED) you WOULD know ALL horses in the BC were tested.

Pletcher's horse got AN antibiotic for an infection. Procaine was USED with an intramuscalur antibiotic injection. Pletcher's horse tested positive for a minute amount...verified as being injected into the horse with the antibiotic 18 days prior.

The interval for clearance of procaine is 15 days. Pletcher's horse still had procaine in it's system AFTER the specified dissipation interval.
Hence, the CA violation supported by NY( and ALL) until an appeal.

Who's talking about procaine...I was reffering to his horse's testing positive for mepivacaine in a race he won at Saratoga in 2004, an anesthetic that has "a high potential to affect performance." Follow the bouncing ball please...

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

He's held to his own standard because he's the poster boy for racing. If he walked through a crowd at Saratoga 90% of racing fans would know who he is. Gary Sherlock has won just as many G1's this year as Todd but no one would know who he is. It'd be like a revelation that Tiger Woods uses steroids or illegal golf balls.

You know that Assman is universally reviled on this board and pretty much everywhere else.

Good analogy, if Tiger Woods didn't win a major all year but won a bunch of lesser tournaments, people would ask the same thing what is wrong with the guy?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'll have to think about that dumbest thing comment abit more, but in short do you seriously think the N.Y stewards would hand down a 45 day suspension if it was an coincidental incident. They could have slapped him on the wrists for sloppiness but chose the latter.

BTW How would you know the original dose wasn't a significant amount? The point is the stewards deemed something was not right and they administered the punishment. I guess they just picked out a random number ...

Drugs can be measured to accuracy in very minute amounts.

For example, in NY, caffeine is prohibited at over 100 nanograms per millilter. Do you view the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 101 ng/ml the same as the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 660 ng/ml?

Steve posted a connection to Pletchers mepivicaine case hearing and legal defense here, and the dose found in the horse was published (in fact, it was the basis of his entire defense).

Go to http://rulings.racing.state.ny.us/frm_Rulings.aspx and you can search and read all NYRC rulings regarding drug violations. You can google the Pletcher mepivicaine thing.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by CSC

Good analogy, if Tiger Woods didn't win a major all year but won a bunch of lesser tournaments, people would ask the same thing what is wrong with the guy?

Yeah, but would they automatically attribute it to, "Well, he musta stopped taking the steroids that were giving him his power and distance" ??

Woods isn't John Daley.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, but would they automatically attribute it to, "Well, he musta stopped taking the steroids that were giving him his power and distance" ??

Woods isn't John Daley.

This brings up an important point.

If Woods married John Daley, would you have the name John Wood or Daley Wood?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

This brings up an important point.

If Woods married John Daley, would you have the name John Wood or Daley Wood?

I think most guys would be worrying about where Tiger's wife went.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

I think most guys would be worrying about where Tiger's wife went.

Come to think of it, that might be the reason I almost never sleep.

Do you have any recommendations to help me sleep? I'm trying to figure out which sleep aid would work best for me.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Riot

I think most guys would be worrying about where Tiger's wife went.

She'd be with me.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Riot

I think most guys would be worrying about where Tiger's wife went.

In TAP's case we should not go there....

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Riot

Drugs can be measured to accuracy in very minute amounts.

For example, in NY, caffeine is prohibited at over 100 nanograms per millilter. Do you view the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 101 ng/ml the same as the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 660 ng/ml?

Steve posted a connection to Pletchers mepivicaine case hearing and legal defense here, and the dose found in the horse was published (in fact, it was the basis of his entire defense).

Go to http://rulings.racing.state.ny.us/frm_Rulings.aspx and you can search and read all NYRC rulings regarding drug violations. You can google the Pletcher mepivicaine thing.

Not to change the subject but frankly I am surprised by the few here that are going to such great lengths in defending him, there are alot of astute knowledgeble minds that already have brought up great examples of why they believe not all was on the up and up with his stable. You have to be blind to not believe it was possible. I have no problem saying it is my alledged belief that Todd was a juicer, I have very little doubts about this fact.

[Phalaris1913]

So basically, what you're saying is that a guy who's had two seperate horses (that won or placed in races) with significant levels of local anesthetic in their systems during the immediate post-race period looks rosier than a guy who had an unused vial of illegal medication sitting in a refridgerator.

A 1.6 nanogram mepivacaine positive - when most states have threshold levels much higher than that - is a "significant level?"

I understand the desire to catch cheaters. I do not understand the mindset that wants to see trainers get "gotcha'd" for using legal medication that jurisdictions tell them they can use, at days out from races that jurisdictions tell them they can use it.

This mindset does more damage, re: drug use, to racing than anything else. Most - so they say, virtually all - positives involve nothing but trivial overages of routine, legal medication. The outside world, which hears only that TRAINER X HAS DRUG POSITIVE (not that trainer x used a legal medication several days, or even weeks, ago, often following the official withdrawal recommendations), can only assume that said positive means that trainer x intentionally gave an performance-affecting medication right before the race for nefarious reasons or else they wouldn't be publicising and punishing him for it. Racing needs to figure out how to handle legal medications in a way that doesn't allow abuse but also doesn't criminalize trainers for using them. How it's handled now is not accomplishing that.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

A 1.6 nanogram mepivacaine positive - when most states have threshold levels much higher than that - is a "significant level?"

In a word, yes. What you neglected to mention when bringing up the fact that other states allow for threshold levels of mepivacaine was that New York, at the time, did not allow for any level of mepivacaine. Thus, its not a valid comparison. Even a minor trace of mepivacaine proved that the horse was administered the drug in an illegal fashion (within 7 days of the race) as far as the State of New York was concerned (regardless of whether it was used for therapeutic or nefarious reasons).

I understand the desire to catch cheaters. I do not understand the mindset that wants to see trainers get "gotcha'd" for using legal medication that jurisdictions tell them they can use, at days out from races that jurisdictions tell them they can use it.

Mepivacaine is a local anesthetic. While it has therapeutic uses as far as lameness diagnosis and minor surgery goes, it has no business being in a racehorse's system on raceday.

The fact that Pletcher has recently been handed a second violation for another local anesthetic (I realize many here are trying to sugar coat it by calling it an "antibiotic" positive--but Wait A While tested positive for procaine) makes things look anything but rosy. At best the repeat offense makes him look careless, and at worse it makes him look like he's trying to toe the line with what he can "get away" with.

[AeWingnut]

How many nanograms would it take to enhance performance?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

How many nanograms would it take to enhance performance?

Mepivacaine basically allows a horse to run his/her heart out because it dulls any pain to a horse. You can imagine the effect this would have on a horse's performance. Notable trainer's to have tested positive for having Mepivacaine in their horses are Dutrow, Mullins, Asmussen, and Pletcher. The how many nanograms is a mute issue if you ask me, the question should be why was it in a horse's system in the first place, the answer to me is obvious if you see what the common trait of the vast majority of these trainers horses strengths are/were. There's a common thread.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

In a word, yes. What you neglected to mention when bringing up the fact that other states allow for threshold levels of mepivacaine was that New York, at the time, did not allow for any level of mepivacaine. Thus, its not a valid comparison. Even a minor trace of mepivacaine proved that the horse was administered the drug in an illegal fashion (within 7 days of the race) as far as the State of New York was concerned (regardless of whether it was used for therapeutic or nefarious reasons).



Mepivacaine is a local anesthetic. While it has therapeutic uses as far as lameness diagnosis and minor surgery goes, it has no business being in a racehorse's system on raceday.

The fact that Pletcher has recently been handed a second violation for another local anesthetic (I realize many here are trying to sugar coat it by calling it an "antibiotic" positive--but Wait A While tested positive for procaine) makes things look anything but rosy. At best the repeat offense makes him look careless, and at worse it makes him look like he's trying to toe the line with what he can "get away" with.

Good post.

[Smooth Operator]

Haven't been following this little episode, but it's always great fun watching Pletch twist in the wind.






Would love to see some deranged board member (FGFan perhaps ... lol) give Pletch a wedgie in that Toga winner's circle one of these summers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

In a word, yes. What you neglected to mention when bringing up the fact that other states allow for threshold levels of mepivacaine was that New York, at the time, did not allow for any level of mepivacaine. Thus, its not a valid comparison. Even a minor trace of mepivacaine proved that the horse was administered the drug in an illegal fashion (within 7 days of the race) as far as the State of New York was concerned (regardless of whether it was used for therapeutic or nefarious reasons).



Mepivacaine is a local anesthetic. While it has therapeutic uses as far as lameness diagnosis and minor surgery goes, it has no business being in a racehorse's system on raceday.

The fact that Pletcher has recently been handed a second violation for another local anesthetic (I realize many here are trying to sugar coat it by calling it an "antibiotic" positive--but Wait A While tested positive for procaine) makes things look anything but rosy. At best the repeat offense makes him look careless, and at worse it makes him look like he's trying to toe the line with what he can "get away" with.

Actually the NY rule was changed because the rules that were in effect before were for testing procedures that were dated. The state of New York's rules are the problem in this case hence the change. No one would try to use mepivacaine as a block in a racehorse any more than you would down a 6 pack while waiting in line at a police checkpoint. The levels ARE insignifigant at a certain point. Just about anything can be found in a horses system if you test at low enough levels.

Procaine penn was a bad choice of medications and despite the vet and Pletchers assertions they should have known better. But again no one would use procaine in the manner that ypu suggest he may have. it would be like trying to sneak a rifle through airline security especially at the BC where you know that the testing is going to be very thorough.

Pletcher surely is guilty of violations of the rules but these are not smoking guns that people want them to be. Check out what happened to Noel Hickey in Chicago a few years back to really learn how people cheat.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by CSC

Mepivacaine basically allows a horse to run his/her heart out because it dulls any pain to a horse. You can imagine the effect this would have on a horse's performance. Notable trainer's to have tested positive for having Mepivacaine in their horses are Dutrow, Mullins, Asmussen, and Pletcher. The how many nanograms is a mute issue if you ask me, the question should be why was it in a horse's system in the first place, the answer to me is obvious if you see what the common trait of the vast majority of these trainers horses strengths are/were. There's a common thread.

if Mepivacaine is allowed at some level, it isn't a mute point. if it doesn't actually enhance performance with levels so low you have to go nano to even find it...

though I have never tried the stuff I imagine a nanogram of cocaine won't get you high but cocaine isn't allowed at all.

I remember Brass Hat lost his placing at Dubai because they found something in his system they said he could have.

I have a different metabolism than you and I imagine horses can differ. I'm just saying I don't know if the intent was to cheat or they are clueless. I'm not pro-drug but I imagine it is like Lasix. No one wants to find out on race day that they should have used it. (like EVERYONE else)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

How many nanograms would it take to enhance performance?

There is virtually no medication that could effect performance at the nanogram level. The point of the exercise is dectecting the drug to attempt to determine if the drug was given after the allowed time frame. There is virtually no research done to reach these levels. Often they are randomly determined by the lab doing the testing in conjunction with the state doing the testing. One of the reasons that the RMTC was a good idea is to get all the states to come to grips with having the same testing levels and hopefully one day they will actually determine the levels that a drug can actually still have an effect and come up with an adequate withdrawl time so that we dont have all the gray areas that we currently still have.