The Spa says who needs Polytrack?

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Oracle, I think you are just looking at one aspect of synthetic surface. The theory behind a synthetic surface is 1) the safety of horse and jock, 2) to keep maintenance costs down and 3) to have a surface that isnt bias. Some tracks (in my opinion) needs a synthetic surface and some don't. I dont think you will find too many people who wont argue that a place like Turfway needed it. Woodbine and the inner track at Aqueduct also need it. Keeneland needs it to make the track more fair. Some west coast track needs it too. I dont think it is as easy as just putting down a deeper surface. Geography plays a huge role in what type of surface is best. Again, a synthetic surface isnt a replacement for dirt, it is an alternative to dirt racing.

You make an excelant proponent of improving the dirt surface. Follow the money and see where the push for polycrap is. The only place where this chit should be used is where they battle with foul weather consistantly.

I'm glad to hear Belmont and Saratoga will not go to polytrack. It makes sense to try it on one of the Aqueduct surfaces.

I hate to see this happen at Keeneland, where they only needed to make a depper, more forgiving surface with less rail bias. Imo, they rushed into this, which is very un-like the Keeneland Association. At least the Keeneland turf course will retain form.

I have yet to figure out how to play Turfway now, so I don't play it.

Just because a few crazy Brits like the stuff doesn't mean we need it or really want it. Besides, I know on no meaningful European races run on polytrack.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

I'm glad to hear Belmont and Saratoga will not go to polytrack. It makes sense to try it on one of the Aqueduct surfaces.

I hate to see this happen at Keeneland, where they only needed to make a depper, more forgiving surface with less rail bias. Imo, they rushed into this, which is very un-like the Keeneland Association. At least the Keeneland turf course will retain form.

I have yet to figure out how to play Turfway now, so I don't play it.

Just because a few crazy Brits like the stuff doesn't mean we need it or really want it. Besides, I know on no meaningful European races run on polytrack.

Keeneland rushed into it, because they are part owners of a Poly Track company. Keeneland can have days in the Fall, where it plays very fair, then be extremely speed favoring the next. The Spring Meet is always a mystery, but I think that's because of the region just coming out of Winter that may have some effect on the track, but that's just my opinion. The Fall Meet at Keeneland is the better of the two in my opinion, because of the way the track plays, it may favor speed, but at least you can see it favoring speed, in the Spring, it's total guess of how it's going to play...

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Keeneland rushed into it, because they are part owners of a Poly Track company. Keeneland can have days in the Fall, where it plays very fair, then be extremely speed favoring the next. The Spring Meet is always a mystery, but I think that's because of the region just coming out of Winter that may have some effect on the track, but that's just my opinion. The Fall Meet at Keeneland is the better of the two in my opinion, because of the way the track plays, it may favor speed, but at least you can see it favoring speed, in the Spring, it's total guess of how it's going to play...

Keeneland didnt rush into this at all. They have been studying it for the past 10 years. This is anything but a rash decision.

I can gurantee you that attendance by many trainers at Keeneland will be down this fall. It makes no sense to prep for the BC over a surface like that. All Keeneland has done is help the Belmont fall meet out!! Keeneland will take a hammering in the handle. Lets see how many tracks wanna switch when Keeneland takes a beating in the handle.
Its a text book marketing scam, thats all this stuff is. The playbook goes like this:
1) Seize on the issues that its all about horses health and play on tragedies to try and use them to your advantage. Make out any trainer who says he doesnt like it to be in the same league as a molester, make any opponents of the stuff afraid to speak out lest they be labeled bad guys who don't care about horses health.
2) Hammer home to tracks that after they spend the initial ten million that maintenance costs will be minimal and save them money in the long run.(The fact that supposedly Turfway had to really work on the stuff this summer isn't spoken about) Don't explain to the track execs that many players(who support the tracks with handle) won't wanna play races on the stuff.
3) Rally around the fact that crippled horses who shouldnt be running in the first place can now make twice as many starts on the stuff and fill cards.
4) Don't make any mention of the fact that the jocks absolutely hate this stuff and because of it the races can set up very unorthodox. The agent of a LEADING Kentucky rider told me his kid hates the stuff. Says it hurts when it kicks back at you. Its why the races on the stuff look like parades with the horses all strung out, the jocks wanna be in the clear and out of the path of the kickback.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Keeneland didnt rush into this at all. They have been studying it for the past 10 years. This is anything but a rash decision.

yeah, them owning part of the company had nothing to do with it. Are you kidding me? That place has been a rail bias for decades and only NOW when they own part of a company that makes this stuff do they care about the surface so very deeply? Are you serious?

Originally Posted by oracle80

I can gurantee you that attendance by many trainers at Keeneland will be down this fall. It makes no sense to prep for the BC over a surface like that. All Keeneland has done is help the Belmont fall meet out!! Keeneland will take a hammering in the handle. Lets see how many tracks wanna switch when Keeneland takes a beating in the handle.
Its a text book marketing scam, thats all this stuff is. The playbook goes like this:
1) Seize on the issues that its all about horses health and play on tragedies to try and use them to your advantage. Make out any trainer who says he doesnt like it to be in the same league as a molester, make any opponents of the stuff afraid to speak out lest they be labeled bad guys who don't care about horses health.
2) Hammer home to tracks that after they spend the initial ten million that maintenance costs will be minimal and save them money in the long run.(The fact that supposedly Turfway had to really work on the stuff this summer isn't spoken about) Don't explain to the track execs that many players(who support the tracks with handle) won't wanna play races on the stuff.
3) Rally around the fact that crippled horses who shouldnt be running in the first place can now make twice as many starts on the stuff and fill cards.
4) Don't make any mention of the fact that the jocks absolutely hate this stuff and because of it the races can set up very unorthodox. The agent of a LEADING Kentucky rider told me his kid hates the stuff. Says it hurts when it kicks back at you. Its why the races on the stuff look like parades with the horses all strung out, the jocks wanna be in the clear and out of the path of the kickback.

Actually, Keeneland has had more barn requests for the fall 06 meet than for any other meet they have ever had. That tells me that there are going to more horses on the grounds. Secondly, Keeneland bought into the company after doing 10 years of research. They see the potential so why not buy it. And again, a synthetic surface is not for everyone. But I dont think handle will be down at all. And I think that the fields will be full as well.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Actually, Keeneland has had more barn requests for the fall 06 meet than for any other meet they have ever had. That tells me that there are going to more horses on the grounds. Secondly, Keeneland bought into the company after doing 10 years of research. They see the potential so why not buy it. And again, a synthetic surface is not for everyone. But I dont think handle will be down at all. And I think that the fields will be full as well.

Do you honestly think that anyone is gonna ship there to prep for the BC? It makes no sense. Only shippers for the polytrack races will be guys trying to get money who don't think they have true graded stakes horses. You know damn well that the polytrack hype machine was waiting with baited breath for someone prolific to break down up here so they could seize on it like they have the most recent breakdowns. Geez, heres a "novel" concept. Instead of spending 10 million on that stuff, spend a few thousand on some soil and throw it down on the track and then don't scrape it for the races. Who would figure? But then again noone gets rich marketing soil. Its very cheap and very abundant.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Do you honestly think that anyone is gonna ship there to prep for the BC? It makes no sense. Only shippers for the polytrack races will be guys trying to get money who don't think they have true graded stakes horses. You know damn well that the polytrack hype machine was waiting with baited breath for someone prolific to break down up here so they could seize on it like they have the most recent breakdowns. Geez, heres a "novel" concept. Instead of spending 10 million on that stuff, spend a few thousand on some soil and throw it down on the track and then don't scrape it for the races. Who would figure? But then again noone gets rich marketing soil. Its very cheap and very abundant.

It is a little more complicated than just throwing some soil down. I assume most trainers are going to be using the turf races as a prep. Then the 2 year old race will fill nicely. But Keeneland only has a couple of dirt prep races that never really are that popular. But I think we will be surprised by the meeting.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

It is a little more complicated than just throwing some soil down. I assume most trainers are going to be using the turf races as a prep. Then the 2 year old race will fill nicely. But Keeneland only has a couple of dirt prep races that never really are that popular. But I think we will be surprised by the meeting.

Its not as complicated as you might think. A good soil/sand mixture(without clay) can be thrown down and worked quite nicely. In addition the watering trucks up here have been given a huge break. Instead of constantly watering long and hard which makes the track fast and hard, they pretty much just harrow it and let it lie, when they do water its not excessive. The result has been a deep safe surface where, are you ready for this!!!!, off the pace types actually run well instead of speed parades all day.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its not as complicated as you might think. A good soil/sand mixture(without clay) can be thrown down and worked quite nicely. In addition the watering trucks up here have been given a huge break. Instead of constantly watering long and hard which makes the track fast and hard, they pretty much just harrow it and let it lie, when they do water its not excessive. The result has been a deep safe surface where, are you ready for this!!!!, off the pace types actually run well instead of speed parades all day.

Obvioulsy you dont know much about geography.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Obvioulsy you dont know much about geography.

Sure I do, are you saying it wouldnt be cheaper to truck in some soil/sand than spend ten mill on the other stuff?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Sure I do, are you saying it wouldnt be cheaper to truck in some soil/sand than spend ten mill on the other stuff?

Over the long run yes it would be cheaper.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Over the long run yes it would be cheaper.

Ah, but noone markets soil and sand with vigor because noone makes any real money on that. Thats the bottom line here.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ah, but noone markets soil and sand with vigor because noone makes any real money on that. Thats the bottom line here.

There is tons of money to be made in dirt/soil/clay.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

There is tons of money to be made in dirt/soil/clay.

Not ten million up front in cash on one shipment there isn't. Other wise I'm going out today to buy a shovel and a used dump truck and skipping the races today!!!

Hey ... Del Mar can get the stuff for free ...

... just tell some enviro-whackos that it's a beach reclamation project ...

... and there'll be trucks full of sand storming through the gates.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I think there will be a significant drop off in the quality of horses at Keeneland, besides Dutrow does not have a stable at Keenelandor if he does, it's very small. Pletcher runs there, but the number of runners he has in the Fall Meet is not as great as the Spring Meet, because Belmont is running during the Fall Meet. You will see significant dropoff in handle at Keeneland beginning this Fall, no one wants to bet on that crap...

If nobody wants to bet on "that crap", why did Turfway's daily average handles increase so much?

[sumitas]

The jury is still out on how the betting public will respond although Turfway is a poly success story all around.

And the poster boy of synthetic and dirt surfaces, High Cotton (Dixie Union, Happy Tune-AP Indy), would be expected to make an appearance at Keeneland.

[2MinsToPost]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

There is tons of money to be made in dirt/soil/clay.

contact the folks at Eldora Speedway and ask them how much it costs for dirt, clay

yes their is. fact jack.