Mitchell Report Guessing Game

Originally Posted by JJP

I would say with 99.99999999999% certainty that Greg Maddux never used steroids.

Maddux took the hormone known as guile.
THe wise old owl of pitching.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i love this defense of a completely broken down dysfunctional sport.

how many players has baseball suspended for steroid use?

i'll take the nfl -10 for whatever you want to bet.

the nfl put in enforcement mechanisms decades ago.

is the league drug free? no. did they at least acknowlege they had a problem and try to deal with it before it was so bad they had to throw their hands in the air and ask for help?

the problem with baseball is the fans. you specifically.

you lament the one good thing this sport has done. you're an enabler.

How am I an enabler?? I have nothing to do with MLB policy and never have. I root for the cleveland indians to win...that is my involvement with the sport. My guess is more NFL players have had much more post career problems due to steroid use than MLB players. I have no proof to back that up...but look at the massive issue that MIke Ditka is brigning to the forefront with the disabilities of ex NFL players. I honestly think a big part of that is drug abuse (steroids or whatever else) by them masking pain and making them play with it. Lack of care of concussions etc. Rampant steroid use began in the NFL...WAY, WAY before MLB. So of course their time table was different. OF course they'd have a testing mechanism before baseball. Lyle Alzado was great entertainment back in the day just as Sammy Sosa/Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire were.

I make light of it...but MLB does have a policy in place now. I simply don't see the point in going 10-20 years past and digging up only selected names who used. The NFL never did that to my knowledge.

We are all enablers who ever watch a game I guess. So yeah I enable. Sue me. But don't ever tell me that MLB is any more dysfunctional than the NFL. If you honestly think these average 315-325 lb lineman and 255 lb linebackers with 4.5 speed and 230 lb safeties come by everything 100 percent naturally with only good hard work be my guest.

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

How am I an enabler?? I have nothing to do with MLB policy and never have. I root for the cleveland indians to win...that is my involvement with the sport. My guess is more NFL players have had much more post career problems due to steroid use than MLB players. I have no proof to back that up...but look at the massive issue that MIke Ditka is brigning to the forefront with the disabilities of ex NFL players. I honestly think a big part of that is drug abuse (steroids or whatever else) by them masking pain and making them play with it. Lack of care of concussions etc. Rampant steroid use began in the NFL...WAY, WAY before MLB. So of course their time table was different. OF course they'd have a testing mechanism before baseball. Lyle Alzado was great entertainment back in the day just as Sammy Sosa/Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire were.

I make light of it...but MLB does have a policy in place now. I simply don't see the point in going 10-20 years past and digging up only selected names who used. The NFL never did that to my knowledge.

We are all enablers who ever watch a game I guess. So yeah I enable. Sue me. But don't ever tell me that MLB is any more dysfunctional than the NFL. If you honestly think these average 315-325 lb lineman and 255 lb linebackers with 4.5 speed and 230 lb safeties come by everything 100 percent naturally with only good hard work be my guest.

MLB is more dysfunctional than the NFL.

[horseofcourse]

I'll throw out Walter Payton, Emmit Smith, Jerry Rice as names. I would say it is likely that at least one time one of them took something or shot something into their bodies that wasn't legal. There simply isn't the fascination amongst fans and media of asterisking their accomplishments, eliminating them from the HOF, all this stuff. My initial thought is people still take stuff in the NFL and can pass their drug tests. And that is fine.

MLB baseball has drug testing now. Was it too slow coming about? Absolutely, but go forward and do what you can from this point and onward. To be conducting witch hunts at this point is counter productive in my opinion. Really wasn't the Salem experience enough in that regard in this country?? And that is all this Mitchell report was in my opinion. Of course my opinions are usually wrong, but they still exist. I think the Mitchell report was an attempt by Bud Selig to exonerate himself only for being slow on the draw with drug testing. I think it was a self serving attempt by him to simply make himself look good. It had nothing to do with improving MLB. These crimes committed by the players in question taking these drugs are in essence not harmful to society. It's not like they are going to be put away in prison based on this report. So what function did it serve other than to make Bud Selig look like he really delved into this problem earnestly?? I see no other reason. ( I don't think Selig is satan as commissioner. I'm indifferent to him. HE's done some good things. I just think this Mitchell report was all about him and him alone.)

dysfunctional?? Perhaps...I think just a delayed drug policy is all. IF that makes it dysfunctional fine. You don't have a bunch of Lyle Alzado's Mike Webster's or Andre Waters' type retired MLB players walking around. Or too many tooling around in wheel chairs. The NFL is simply high priced organized brutatlity. That alone makes it more dysfunctional. The fact that they got better drug testing in place first in my opinion does not make the NFL a complete non-"dysfucntional" institution.

It's pro sports, people will always cheat in MLB and the NFL and get away with it more than not regardless of whatever drug testing policy is currently in place.

[King Glorious]

As evidenced by the rising revenues in baseball, the sport is as popular as ever and actually, even moreso probably. This coming at a time when all the public suspects that players are cheating. The point is......noboby cares. We want to be entertained. When I go see a Giants game, I'm looking to see Bonds hit one 500 ft. I wouldn't care if he stood at home plate and put the syringe in his arm before each at bat. Athletes and teams in all sports cheat in one way or another so this is no big deal to me.

I've seen several commentaries saying that Bonds came out the big winner here. Everyone has been so hard on him and cast him as some kind of devil because they say he cheated. Everyone fawns over Clemens and calls him some sort of god and an athletic marvel. Now that his name has been mentioned, he's going to become the new face of the steroid era for a while and take some of the heat off of old news Bonds.

So now, if Bonds deserves and asterisk because he had an unfair advantage by using drugs, does that change if half of the pitchers are using them too?

This report is a joke. It won't clean up anything. Selig won't clean up anything. The owners are making too much money these days to let him mess that up. Does anyone believe that had the Giants owner personally seen Bonds taking drugs that he would have told him to stop? I don't. He was too busy counting his money from all of the sellout crowds Bonds was attracting.

[Mortimer]

I don't really care...how's that?


Pro sports is an incorrigible mess and big time college is trying to catch up.

Buy the tickets and the whatnot.

You can help in so many ways.













BLECH.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This report is a joke. It won't clean up anything. Selig won't clean up anything. The owners are making too much money these days to let him mess that up. Does anyone believe that had the Giants owner personally seen Bonds taking drugs that he would have told him to stop? I don't. He was too busy counting his money from all of the sellout crowds Bonds was attracting.

Say hello to the Federal government getting its foot in the door.
That is exactly what this report has done.

Andy P. comes clean.
And Roger had the same trainer and this was his workout partner...

And Andy claims that HGH was not illegal the way he used it. The drug policy in MLB is so screwed up and the rules have changed so many times... The NFL has BANNED HGH since way back, at least 15 years ago.

ANd people try to use the NFL to sanctify MLB....hmmmm. Sure the NFL has problems. But the NFL did not ask George Mitchell to come in and give a report. The Commisioner in the NFL has a little more of a grip than Selig.

I think Selig wants government intervention. No reason to ask for Mitchell to come in and investigate if its all hunky-dory.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The NFL did not personally ask George Mitchell to come in like Selig did. And the NFL has already indicted a number of players for using and selling HGH... Im sure its not perfect. But the NFL turned guys in after testing positive as far back as 1993. So I think the NFL, while not perfect, was at least ahead of the wave.

BTW.
Every High School athlete in Texas is subject to random testing at any time starting next year. Their parents will be notified that they will be tested if chosen, and will have 2 hrs to make it to the school if they choose to be with their child while they are giving samples. They expect to hit about 5% of the athletes. Not enough. But certainly something to think about. They will also target kids who have gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. Strength coaches etc... are required to keep track of the kids. If a coach is known to have any idea that a kid may be involved in the use or selling of a specific group of hormones and they do not report the alleged violation, termination is possible if the player tests positive. Coaches are asked to actively insure the safety of the athletes and seek out suspected problems.
Kind of like we (teachers) already have to do if we have evidence that a kid might be subject to abuse at home.

Yeah the NFL was able to fool everybody into thinking that they were doing something. I would be surprised if 95% of the NFL wasn't taking HGH or something close to it

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Say hello to the Federal government getting its foot in the door.
That is exactly what this report has done.

I dont exactly know why that scares anyone. Since when does the federal government get anything done?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Andy P. comes clean.
And Roger had the same trainer and this was his workout partner...

And Andy claims that HGH was not illegal the way he used it. The drug policy in MLB is so screwed up and the rules have changed so many times... The NFL has BANNED HGH since way back, at least 15 years ago.

ANd people try to use the NFL to sanctify MLB....hmmmm. Sure the NFL has problems. But the NFL did not ask George Mitchell to come in and give a report. The Commisioner in the NFL has a little more of a grip than Selig.

I think Selig wants government intervention. No reason to ask for Mitchell to come in and investigate if its all hunky-dory.

However they have no way of testing for it so the ban is a total joke initself. The NFL does a much better job of keeping its PR machine working than does MLB. But after personally speaking to a number of current and former NFL players, I have been told that pretty much everybody is doing something.

[Mortimer]

Jamal Lewis=The Hulk

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

However they have no way of testing for it so the ban is a total joke initself. The NFL does a much better job of keeping its PR machine working than does MLB. But after personally speaking to a number of current and former NFL players, I have been told that pretty much everybody is doing something.

Yes they do.
Just not in urine.

Have they also told you there is no way to test for it.
ANd Merriman... why did they even bother?

This is not the NFL v. MLB.

Selig asked for a report from a guy who digs deep.
Why?

And if you dont think the federal government plays a role in anything, check out Iraq and your taxes. Professional sports are probably one of the more accessible "businesses" to intrude into. Besides this, there are clear federal laws prohibiting the sales of all these variants of testorone and HGH like compounds. When State governments start to test high school athletes, we have a problem.

There are also other ways to catch guys. They have the stuff on them. Very few people have use for HGH other than Ach. dwarfs. (Which is why the stuff was synthesized in the first place)

[hi_im_god]

what was the penalty a mlb player incurred for a positive steroids test in 2003? can someone look this up for me?

afterwards could you ask all the retards pointing at the nfl to just plead "no contest" so we don't have to go through the formality of a trial?

the nfl had random drug tests (without 24-48 hour notice to the teams they would be conducted) and actually suspended players who tested positive.

the mitchell report was a good day for baseball. pointing out the problem's of other's is just a way not to deal with your own.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

This is not the NFL v. MLB.

Selig asked for a report from a guy who digs deep.
Why?

And if you dont think the federal government plays a role in anything, check out Iraq and your taxes. Professional sports are probably one of the more accessible "businesses" to intrude into. Besides this, there are clear federal laws prohibiting the sales of all these variants of testorone and HGH like compounds. When State governments start to test high school athletes, we have a problem.

There are also other ways to catch guys. They have the stuff on them. Very few people have use for HGH other than Ach. dwarfs. (Which is why the stuff was synthesized in the first place)

No one said it was NFL vs MLB but it ironic that that football which has a much larger problem is treated like they are clean which they are not. I also never said the federal govt doesnt play a role. I said that they dont get anything done. There are about a 1000 examples but I will just use yours, taxes and Iraq. Iraq needs no explination and can you find a better example of loopholes and poor regulaton than the American federal tax system?
"Having the stuff on them" using unsubstantiated testimony is really no more than hearsay. This report is PR and PR only. The owners and Selig are looking to cover their asses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

what was the penalty a mlb player incurred for a positive steroids test in 2003? can someone look this up for me?

afterwards could you ask all the retards pointing at the nfl to just plead "no contest" so we don't have to go through the formality of a trial?

the nfl had random drug tests (without 24-48 hour notice to the teams they would be conducted) and actually suspended players who tested positive.

the mitchell report was a good day for baseball. pointing out the problem's of other's is just a way not to deal with your own.

Us retards arent a actual part of baseball. If sharpies like you who actually believe that humans have advanced so far in 20 years that the 270 pound lineman who ran a 5.2 40 is now a "natural" 325 pound guy who runs a 4.8 40 than a look in the mirror may be needed. I never said anything other than the irony in the perception of the 2 sports both of which are dirty.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Us retards arent a actual part of baseball. If sharpies like you who actually believe that humans have advanced so far in 20 years that the 270 pound lineman who ran a 5.2 40 is now a "natural" 325 pound guy who runs a 4.8 40 than a look in the mirror may be needed. I never said anything other than the irony in the perception of the 2 sports both of which are dirty.

and i never said either sport was clean. i simply pointed out that one had a testing regimen that resulted in player suspensions and the other had the emperor's new clothes.

i'll argue nfl vs mlb drug policies all day long if you want. not like it would take a lot of effort.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

and i never said either sport was clean. i simply pointed out that one had a testing regimen that resulted in player suspensions and the other had the emperor's new clothes.

i'll argue nfl vs mlb drug policies all day long if you want. not like it would take a lot of effort.

This was never about drug policies, it was about perceptions. The NFL has tricked people including you, God, into believing it has clean players when nothing could be further to the truth. You have actually made my point for me, with little effort. Thanks.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This was never about drug policies, it was about perceptions. The NFL has tricked people including you, God, into believing it has clean players when nothing could be further to the truth. You have actually made my point for me, with little effort. Thanks.

"and i never said either sport was clean"

damn you and your superior logic! you have me in a box!

one where i sit and actually read other posts. because...what else does one do in a logic box?