Maimonides out 30 days

[parsixfarms]

Yes, shins with 2YOs are common, but anyone who says that there were not issues with the Saratoga tracks this past summer is kidding themselves, or trying to advance another agenda. If there was one thing that most of the trainers agreed upon, it was their displeasure with the hardness and fastness (how many track records were set) of the tracks caused by the track super's nightly decision to seal and roll the tracks, even when there was no rain in the forecast. The issue became such a problem that special meetings were called between the horsemen and NYRA management to address the trainers' concerns.

Speaking from personal experience, we had two horses on the grounds and both developed filling in their ankles, and this was only from training. Last Sunday, our vet was at the barn to x-ray one horse to make sure that there were no significant issues. The x-rays revealed nothing that required surgery, and we think he probably suffered a foot bruise (another common aliment up here this summer). The most telling statement from the vet was he had x-rayed more ankles this past summer, only to have them come back negative. He attributed this to the hardness of the tracks.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Because I am unable to control myself when I confront idiocy. but you are right.

The predator circles his pray...

[ELA]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Of course there were issues, but to blame the track for Maimonides shins seems a bit unfounded at least at this time. Most of the posts in this thread by me were in response to Sumitas' poly agenda.

I agree. I attended the meeting where the horsemen discussed the track, condition, etc., with NYRA management. It was a very good meeting although I think there were some issues. One issue, which could have been addressed before the fact, was that I am not sure how many people (trainers) felt there were "major" issues with the track. Of course "major" is a relative term.

Also, because there were a very few very vocal that appeared to be the driving force, I am not sure this was the most efficient and effective approach. Regardless, NYRA was very receptive and immediately followed up and took action. I think the major issue was the track being sealed, more as an isolated issue, but of course everyone is going to have their own issues. The track super felt completely blindsided and was caught completely off-guard, and while that might not be important, I think it might be more indicitive of the tone or environment.

I think the approach is key here -- solving problems, by working together; or working against, force, or at least the appearence or tone of working against.

Eric

[Ronnie]

So it clearly wasn't an issue of dirt vs poly. Nobody was jumping up and down saying "We want poly!"

Maimonides was in Saratoga because it wasn't poly.

[theiman]

Interesting study done about 5 years ago regarding bucked shins.

http://www2.vet.upenn.edu/labs/corl/...uckedshins.pdf

I would gather racing 2 year olds on dirt surfaces isnt beneficial, in relation to bucked shins. Part might be from the development point of a 2 year old, part may be the surface, and part may be the speed of the horse in training.

Bafferts style, with his QH background might lead to the approach he has shown with T-Breds and 2 year olds, and thus the expected results.

There is a ton of techincal stuff in the article and some general stuff you can conclude from the findings.

Perhaps it would give all on this topic a clearer idea of bucked shins.

The article is about 14 pages and in pdf format.

Just a side note. Calling a poster a clown, or other names serves no purpose.
Ignore the poster, argue the points of the argument, but name calling is not what a forum should be about.

Originally Posted by theiman

Just a side note. Calling a poster a clown, or other names serves no purpose.
Ignore the poster, argue the points of the argument, but name calling is not what a forum should be about.

Says you. To others calling a clown a clown is delightful and LOLLERFUL.

[theiman]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You have no idea the shenanigans this said poster has provided here. Drunk ramblings in the middle of the night, telling posters who disagree to go and die and other nice things. He/she/it is a clown of the highest order. Including blaming anything that is not poly for the problems of any horse. You must have missed his brilliant take on how Barbaro broke down because of the Pimlico dirt. I know I didn't.

Then those are the times for ignore. Most people who do that stuff strive for attention. If they get no resoponse, they tend to move on. I havent been on here that long, thus I didnt know of the posters past.

Thanks for the update.

The article on bucked shins is still good reading.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You have no idea the shenanigans this said poster has provided here. Drunk ramblings in the middle of the night, telling posters who disagree to go and die and other nice things. He/she/it is a clown of the highest order. Including blaming anything that is not poly for the problems of any horse. You must have missed his brilliant take on how Barbaro broke down because of the Pimlico dirt. I know I didn't.

Yep, uses every injury as a chance to slam dirt and promote poly.

Originally Posted by theiman

Then those are the times for ignore. Most people who do that stuff strive for attention. If they get no resoponse, they tend to move on. I havent been on here that long, thus I didnt know of the posters past.

Thanks for the update.

The article on bucked shins is still good reading.

That's not for you to decide. You are the one complaining. If you don't like what some posters have to say then feel free to do what you're ordering others to do.

[theiman]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

That's not for you to decide. You are the one complaining. If you don't like what some posters have to say then feel free to do what you're ordering others to do.

I am not complaining, just trying to post some common sense when approaching someone who might have an agenda and perhaps needs attention.

I guess it is best to drop it from my end as I see many dont like the poster.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by theiman

Interesting study done about 5 years ago regarding bucked shins.

http://www2.vet.upenn.edu/labs/corl/...uckedshins.pdf

I would gather racing 2 year olds on dirt surfaces isnt beneficial, in relation to bucked shins. Part might be from the development point of a 2 year old, part may be the surface, and part may be the speed of the horse in training.

Bafferts style, with his QH background might lead to the approach he has shown with T-Breds and 2 year olds, and thus the expected results.

There is a ton of techincal stuff in the article and some general stuff you can conclude from the findings.

Perhaps it would give all on this topic a clearer idea of bucked shins.

The article is about 14 pages and in pdf format.

Just a side note. Calling a poster a clown, or other names serves no purpose.
Ignore the poster, argue the points of the argument, but name calling is not what a forum should be about.

A great deal of that (I took the liberty of bolding that part) is in reality nothing more than supposition, and while there might be "data" to back up opinion or supposition, in this case it might be an exercise in futility. 2yo's have been racing on dirt forever, and still are (and unless the standardbred industry is going to change, they will continue to do so as well). There's never been an alternative until recent times, hence the passion and the controversy so to speak.

Bucked shins will continue to happen and different people are going to blame and point to problems and solutions. That's what makes the world go 'round, LOL. This certainly isn't a Bob Baffert issue.

Many people have very passionate opinions on dirt, poly/synthetic/etc. and I think the verdict is still out because all of the evidence is not in. This is going to be a life-cycle and now it's still in it's infancy.

Eric

[boswd]

In reality these horses should not be asked to compete at this kind of level at 2 yr. old. They are still growing and maturing. Their bodies aren't mature enough to sustain this type of competition this young. Horse don't reach maturity until they are closer to 4. In terms of what's best and safest for the horse technically everything should be pushed back a year. 3yr olds should be running in the Hopeful, Del Mar Futurity etc and the Triple Crown and Travers and such should be 4 yr olds.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by boswd

In reality these horses should not be asked to compete at this kind of level at 2 yr. old. They are still growing and maturing. Their bodies aren't mature enough to sustain this type of competition this young. Horse don't reach maturity until they are closer to 4. In terms of what's best and safest for the horse technically everything should be pushed back a year. 3yr olds should be running in the Hopeful, Del Mar Futurity etc and the Triple Crown and Travers and such should be 4 yr olds.

This is such a falacy and this topic was discussed numerous times through some very good and educational reading:

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...highlight=year

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...highlight=year

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

This is such a falacy and this topic was discussed numerous times through some very good and educational reading:

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...highlight=year

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...highlight=year

What is the falacy? That horses aren't underdeveloped at 2?

[boswd]

This was taken from a horse veterinarian


Although bucked shins are commonly accepted by
veterinarians, trainers, and owners as a normal
training event in young Thoroughbred racehorses,
with estimated losses to the industry of only
$10,000,000/yr in lost training and racing days, it is
far more important than that! Approximately 12%
of horses that buck their shins go on to develop
stress or saucer fractures later in their career.
Besides the aggravation of yet another lameness
occurring at the peak potential earning period in the
horse’s career, these are the animals at risk for
mid-cannon bone fractures, which represent approximately
10% of the fatal catastrophic musculoskeletal
breakdown injuries that occur on the racetracks
in North America each year.

[paisjpq]

the falacy is that they shouldn't go into training....the fact is that even if you wait and start traingin a horse when it turns 3 or even 4 they are most likely just going to buck their shin then....there are carefully prescribed training regimens that can reduce the risk but it is a fact of life that most horses (of any age) are likely to buck shins when they begin training....and that the inflamation and subsequent healing is beneficial for improving bone density....training a horse when it is young enough to rigorously remodel bone is actually better for the horse down the road, especially in a dicipline where speed (and therefore bone loading) is crucial.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by boswd

This was taken from a horse veterinarian


Although bucked shins are commonly accepted by
veterinarians, trainers, and owners as a normal
training event in young Thoroughbred racehorses,
with estimated losses to the industry of only
$10,000,000/yr in lost training and racing days, it is
far more important than that! Approximately 12%
of horses that buck their shins go on to develop
stress or saucer fractures later in their career.
Besides the aggravation of yet another lameness
occurring at the peak potential earning period in the
horse’s career, these are the animals at risk for
mid-cannon bone fractures, which represent approximately
10% of the fatal catastrophic musculoskeletal
breakdown injuries that occur on the racetracks
in North America each year.

the horses that go on to develop stress and saucer fractures are often the ones who, when they buck shins are put up and given complete rest....the bone does not properly remodel and then when they go back into training it happens again....a horse with bucked shins needs to be kept in light work.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

the falacy is that they shouldn't go into training....the fact is that even if you wait and start traingin a horse when it turns 3 or even 4 they are most likely just going to buck their shin then....there are carefully prescribed training regimens that can reduce the risk but it is a fact of life that most horses (of any age) are likely to buck shins when they begin training....and that the inflamation and subsequent healing is beneficial for improving bone density....training a horse when it is young enough to rigorously remodel bone is actually better for the horse down the road, especially in a dicipline where speed (and therefore bone loading) is crucial.

Thanks Thebby, I was googling for an article but you described it very well.

[boswd]

I guess the answer lies somewhere in between. Trainers are pushing the horses too much too early but your point is well taken.

This is a very interesting article

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles/age_criteria.htm

[theiman]

Originally Posted by ELA

A great deal of that (I took the liberty of bolding that part) is in reality nothing more than supposition, and while there might be "data" to back up opinion or supposition, in this case it might be an exercise in futility. 2yo's have been racing on dirt forever, and still are (and unless the standardbred industry is going to change, they will continue to do so as well). There's never been an alternative until recent times, hence the passion and the controversy so to speak.

Bucked shins will continue to happen and different people are going to blame and point to problems and solutions. That's what makes the world go 'round, LOL. This certainly isn't a Bob Baffert issue.

Many people have very passionate opinions on dirt, poly/synthetic/etc. and I think the verdict is still out because all of the evidence is not in. This is going to be a life-cycle and now it's still in it's infancy.

Eric

It definetly is not a Baffert issue, other than Maimomides is the horse in question.
Also, it could be the surface, as per the following from the article

Racehorses that have trained and raced successfully in Europe
may develop bucked shins when they race in North
America on dirt tracks. It is interesting to note
that horses are running on harder surfaces in North
America than on the turf courses in Europe.

The above was from the first page of the article I previously linked too.

There are many results from artificial surfaces we dont know yet, speculation, arguments, etc, could all be moot until concrete numbers are in, and it could be a whole generation to get these.

What I dont understand is the knock on the west coast poly vs the Keeneland poly. It seems the critics of the races at Keeneland havent been as big as the races at DM or I just wasnt reading it as much.

I do think DM might tweak the poly for next year, as they had to get the horse mortality rate down.
On a side note, they really need to work on the turf course, which if you you go to the DM website, the cam showing the track shows the turf course has already been ripped up.