I want to meet the person that would pay this

[Linny]

The issue I have with AH is his lack of "will to win." Look at some of his races, most in fact. The jock has to ride the fur off him to get him to accelerate. He had no interest in exerting himself to catch or pass a rival. He had no gate speed to assure he was in front at any point. He just seemed indifferent to the whole thing.
I'd rather breed to a tenacious horse with lesser breeding and take my chances that I'd get a runner, a beast that wanted to beat horses.

Originally Posted by Linny

The issue I have with AH is his lack of "will to win." Look at some of his races, most in fact. The jock has to ride the fur off him to get him to accelerate. He had no interest in exerting himself to catch or pass a rival. He had no gate speed to assure he was in front at any point. He just seemed indifferent to the whole thing.
I'd rather breed to a tenacious horse with lesser breeding and take my chances that I'd get a runner, a beast that wanted to beat horses.

Well you could have a storm cat that will be unsound or you could have an AH who will more than likely be sound. I agree that the $12,5 is too high, but I think we will be surprised. Breeding isnt an exact science, so we so not know who we will get.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Linny

The issue I have with AH is his lack of "will to win." Look at some of his races, most in fact. The jock has to ride the fur off him to get him to accelerate. He had no interest in exerting himself to catch or pass a rival. He had no gate speed to assure he was in front at any point. He just seemed indifferent to the whole thing.
I'd rather breed to a tenacious horse with lesser breeding and take my chances that I'd get a runner, a beast that wanted to beat horses.

The chances that he passes on his lack of desire to win are slim to none IMO. FuPeg was what I consider "tenacious" and he didn't pass on that tenacity to AH...

You just never know what you're going to get... a lot depends on the mare. I do believe that $12,500 is too high, but I believe he will get some nice runners, but we'll have to wait and see. He's definitely a nice looking horse.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Linny

The issue I have with AH is his lack of "will to win." Look at some of his races, most in fact. The jock has to ride the fur off him to get him to accelerate. He had no interest in exerting himself to catch or pass a rival. He had no gate speed to assure he was in front at any point. He just seemed indifferent to the whole thing.
I'd rather breed to a tenacious horse with lesser breeding and take my chances that I'd get a runner, a beast that wanted to beat horses.

I don't think it was the will that was lacking, it was the acceleration. AH was a traditional one-paced horse. He has one gear and depends on the speed dying on a fast lead and/or and extended distance to win races. Against lower class horses, his one pace is fast enough to pass the others in the stretch - they are tiring more than better class speed horses do. He would have been a natural for the 1950s, where there were a wealth of main track stakes races for stayers. Remember - when grading started, the Jockey Club Gold Cup was 2 miles and the Gallant Fox (13f) was a G2.

This staying style is from Mum's side; his dam's only win was at 12f over the All Weather in England. His second dam was a SW who placed in the CCA Oaks (then 12f) and his second dam was second to Ruffian in the same classic (still 12f).

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

I don't think it was the will that was lacking, it was the acceleration. AH was a traditional one-paced horse. He has one gear and depends on the speed dying on a fast lead and/or and extended distance to win races. Against lower class horses, his one pace is fast enough to pass the others in the stretch - they are tiring more than better class speed horses do. He would have been a natural for the 1950s, where there were a wealth of main track stakes races for stayers. Remember - when grading started, the Jockey Club Gold Cup was 2 miles and the Gallant Fox (13f) was a G2.

This staying style is from Mum's side; his dam's only win was at 12f over the All Weather in England. His second dam was a SW who placed in the CCA Oaks (then 12f) and his second dam was second to Ruffian in the same classic (still 12f).

Would you consider him a good match for a mare with some speed?

[largo1]

Even if they were the same price, I would definitely breed to AH over Bandini. I'm not a FuPeg fan but AH has beautiful conformation, he can run all day and he stays sound. I hope some breeders think $12,500 isn't too much to shell out to (hopefully) breed some soundness into the offspring. Actually, now that I think about it, I'm kinda curious to see what AH produces. In fact, the more I think about it, if I was a person who threw around hundreds of thousands of $$$$$$ breeding racehorses, I would send him a few nice mares.
So there. I'd pay it.
But I also wouldn't pay 1.98¢ to breed to a stallion with major soundness questions.

In the current overpriced market, it does not seem that outrageous to me. At least he is no China doll and he showed up regularly as an older horse in big races.

[sumitas]

I'd go to Cryptoclearance way before AH but it's a matter of pedigree and physicals as well.

[Five Star Derek]

I'll take Congaree for a couple of grand more

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The NY breeding market has so much potential but the same folks have been "running it" for years and its a shame.
Ny needs one of the players with REAL money from Kentucky to set up a satellite breeding operation in NY. There is plenty of farmland available in NY, and the breeding program is great. If one of the Kentucky operations were to set up a satellite program in NY, they could shuffle up some stallions who arent quite making it the way they expected them to, but that they don't want to sell and give up on.
Noone involved in the NY breeding program up here seems to understand this. They just hired a new guy(whose main qualification appears to be that his Dad was a big player, Dragone) and before that Dennis Brida ran the thing(LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I'm the cult of personality).

I mean, how difficult could it be to approach one of the major players down there, and ask them about interest in setting up a satellite farm up here?
They don't wanna do that because there are only 2-3 players up here and they don't wanna disrupt their little monopoly.

The biggest problem that I have with the NY bred program is that the ny breeders have given no incentive for anyone to bring in better sires. By loosening up the breed back requirements they have made it possible for the big KY farms to breed mares to their stallions and drop the foals in NY and have them be full fledged NY breds. The bigger KY farms use this as a marketing tool as their horses are almost always the sale toppers at the NY bred sale and it makes less desirable horses as KY breds more desirable as NY breds because they are eligible for the easy money and they look much better when compared to most of the NY stallions. Hence there is no real incentive for a guy with a good mare that wants a NY bred to breed to a NY stallion. Also the gap between the normal NY breeder and the upper level NY breeder is widening. Most people breeding NY breds are on a limited budget, have so-so mares and are looking for a relatively cheap stallion. The upper level NY breeder is breeding his mares to AP Indy, Giants Causeway, etc. There is no middle market where a $15000 sire could thrive. Not that AH should be a $15000 sire, I would think that at $5000 in NY he could be bred to a much larger book than he will get where he is at.But look what that farm has done for Richter Scale!!!

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The biggest problem that I have with the NY bred program is that the ny breeders have given no incentive for anyone to bring in better sires. By loosening up the breed back requirements they have made it possible for the big KY farms to breed mares to their stallions and drop the foals in NY and have them be full fledged NY breds. The bigger KY farms use this as a marketing tool as their horses are almost always the sale toppers at the NY bred sale and it makes less desirable horses as KY breds more desirable as NY breds because they are eligible for the easy money and they look much better when compared to most of the NY stallions. Hence there is no real incentive for a guy with a good mare that wants a NY bred to breed to a NY stallion. Also the gap between the normal NY breeder and the upper level NY breeder is widening. Most people breeding NY breds are on a limited budget, have so-so mares and are looking for a relatively cheap stallion. The upper level NY breeder is breeding his mares to AP Indy, Giants Causeway, etc. There is no middle market where a $15000 sire could thrive. Not that AH should be a $15000 sire, I would think that at $5000 in NY he could be bred to a much larger book than he will get where he is at.But look what that farm has done for Richter Scale!!!

How do you feel about Ten Most Wanted?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

How do you feel about Ten Most Wanted?

He fits in NY if the cheaper guys are willing to give him a shot. Not much speed in the pedigree but he was a pretty good horse and may be an ok turf sire too. If I had a mare that fit him bloodlines-wise that has some tactical speed I may consider him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He fits in NY if the cheaper guys are willing to give him a shot. Not much speed in the pedigree but he was a pretty good horse and may be an ok turf sire too. If I had a mare that fit him bloodlines-wise that has some tactical speed I may consider him.

I should have added that the above is if I was breeding to race. Commercially he may not be very attractive

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I should have added that the above is if I was breeding to race. Commercially he may not be very attractive

Isn't a commercial "true" NY bred an oxymoron?

I never thought about TMW being a possible turf sire as well, thanks!

[Linny]

Actually some of the Freuds have sold well.

Re: Fu Peg being tenacious:
I tend not to think him as gutsy. When looked in the eye, he folded. When he outclassed his rivals he won in a romp but showed no will to win in the Preakness or the BCC. IMO, he was very overrated.
Giant's Causeway OTOH, was as game as they come. His babies are a bit "flighty" and not easy to train but they have gotten GC's heart.

I personally never saw a horse more overrated than FuPeg, never.
I didn't understand it at the time and I don't know how anyone ever thought of him as some superhorse.
If you watch his Derby, he only won because of an incredibly lucky break and one of the worst rides Solis ever gave.
I was there that day and the rail was as golden as they come. Aptitude was following Fupeg and they were both in behind horses. Solis panicked on the turn and vacated the rail and swung wide in attempt to pass horses. FuPeg slid through a hole that immediately opened up and he was able to slide through it(already in gear from moving up to get the slot that was vacated) with no hesitation and ended up winning by less than the margin of ground that Aptitude lost by in going wide and losing the great rail.
If any of you ever get a chance to see this replay you will see it. He was worked on every step of the lane by the jock and basically was full bore against a moderate field and won with a perfect trip that couldnt have been scripted any better.
Good horse, yes, very good I suppose. But he was yet another media creation that was nowhere NEAR as talented as we was proclaimed to be. Here is an excerpt from the chart call of that Derby.

FUSAICHI PEGASUS broke to the inside, saved ground along the backstretch, swung out approaching the quarter pole and edged clear under vigorous hand urging. APTITUDE was with the winner along the backstretch, eased outside FUSAICHI PEGASUS nearing the final sixteenth and finished determinedly but wasn?t good enough.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I personally never saw a horse more overrated than FuPeg, never.
I didn't understand it at the time and I don't know how anyone ever thought of him as some superhorse.
If you watch his Derby, he only won because of an incredibly lucky break and one of the worst rides Solis ever gave.
I was there that day and the rail was as golden as they come. FuPeg was following Aptitude and they were both in behind horses. Solis panicked on the turn and vacated the rail and swung wide in attempt to pass horses. FuPeg slid up into the place he had vacated and immediately upon doing so the hole opened right up and he was able to slide through it(already in gear from moving up to get the slot that was vacated) with no hesitation and ended up winning by less than the margin of ground that Aptitude lost by in going wide and losing the great rail.
If any of you ever get a chance to see this replay you will see it. He was worked on every step of the lane by the jock and basically was full bore against a moderate field and won with a perfect trip that couldnt have been scripted any better.
Good horse, yes, very good I suppose. But he was yet another media creation that was nowhere NEAR as talented as we was proclaimed to be.

Agreed. He was a good looking (but unsound) sucker too... one of the prettiest heads on a thoroughbred that I've ever seen. (Not like that matters.)

[sumitas]

I've wondered why mares bred to out of state stallions and foaled in NY are considered NY breds. It seems there should be a much greater incentive to foals conceived and foaled in NY.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I personally never saw a horse more overrated than FuPeg, never.
I didn't understand it at the time and I don't know how anyone ever thought of him as some superhorse.
If you watch his Derby, he only won because of an incredibly lucky break and one of the worst rides Solis ever gave.
I was there that day and the rail was as golden as they come. Aptitude was following Fupeg and they were both in behind horses. Solis panicked on the turn and vacated the rail and swung wide in attempt to pass horses. FuPeg slid through a hole that immediately opened up and he was able to slide through it(already in gear from moving up to get the slot that was vacated) with no hesitation and ended up winning by less than the margin of ground that Aptitude lost by in going wide and losing the great rail.
If any of you ever get a chance to see this replay you will see it. He was worked on every step of the lane by the jock and basically was full bore against a moderate field and won with a perfect trip that couldnt have been scripted any better.
Good horse, yes, very good I suppose. But he was yet another media creation that was nowhere NEAR as talented as we was proclaimed to be. Here is an excerpt from the chart call of that Derby.

FUSAICHI PEGASUS broke to the inside, saved ground along the backstretch, swung out approaching the quarter pole and edged clear under vigorous hand urging. APTITUDE was with the winner along the backstretch, eased outside FUSAICHI PEGASUS nearing the final sixteenth and finished determinedly but wasn?t good enough.

Solis, especially now, wants nothing to do with the rail, he has the Albarado disease....

[Cannon Shell]

[quote=oracle80]I personally never saw a horse more overrated than FuPeg, never.
QUOTE]
Tapit?