Where does RTR belong in history?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm pretty sure that Forty Niner was at least as good a quality of horse as was found in 19th century Hungary

And for the sake of accuracy, Kincsem ran her first 6 races in Germany, by this time she had run in four different countries!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

And for the sake of accuracy, Kincsem ran her first 6 races in Germany, by this time she had run in four different countries!

Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, we all can use a little help now and then. Act accordingly.

I thought I was

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

yeah, but they weren't called sheets back then...i think it was called 'skins'....or maybe even papyrus!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you have any of the pp's ? What about her sheet #'s? LOL I could just go on and on....

http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com...es/kincsem.htm
As you know, Europe doesn't use DRF type PP's, nor do they rely on sheet #'s because of the differences in surfaces...here is a record of her 54 wins with final margains.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I look at it this way...

If you judged all fillies as of mid-June of their 3 yo years and came up with a list of the best, I'd say that as short as you choose to make that list,... she's on it.

Using this criteria, Silverbulletday would probably need to be in the discussion as well.
Although perhaps not an all-time great filly, she was extremely accomplished by mid-June of her 3yo campaign. She was a five-time graded stakes winner at 2 (including the BC), and won the Oaks and the Black-Eyed Susans at 3.

[witchdoctor]

I can't believe the name of Miesque has not come up yet. All she did ws win a bunch of Grade 1s in England and France and then came across the pond and beat up on the boys twice in the Breeder's Cup Mile.

[sumitas]

has anyone mentioned that RR is the first horse since Masterman, 1902, to be a 3rd generation Belmont winner.

Originally Posted by witchdoctor

I can't believe the name of Miesque has not come up yet. All she did ws win a bunch of Grade 1s in England and France and then came across the pond and beat up on the boys twice in the Breeder's Cup Mile.

TRUE.

she must be mentioned on the top 10.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

While Rags to Riches is the kind of horse who will run all day---and Magnificence is bred to be a sprinter-miler---perhaps we shouldn't forget that Magnificence was actually the consensus "fastest" and "most impressive" 3yo filly to race at the recently concluded Santa Anita meet.

It's VERY pre-mature to start talk about Rags To Riches as a great filly....she's basically just run the same race over and over since her sneaky super maiden win in Jan...and it's only been the continuous stretching out in distance that is making her look like she's improving so much with each start.

Sadly for her...they don't write Graded Stake races at distances any longer than 12 furlongs on dirt. She's not going to get another three furlong stretch out to 15 furlongs....She's finally going to have to cut-back now.

Let's let her prove herself...either by dominating the girls with fast figures, or by beating the colts at 9 and 10 furlongs...before we start talking about her like this.

I mentioned 3yo filly Jolypha, who came over from Europe, and was 3rd in the Breeders Cup Classic behind Ap Indy in her dirt debut. Here's another example of a filly giving a very good account of herself...this is Easy Goer's dam Relaxing running a competitive 3rd behind John Henry in the 1981 Jockey Club Gold Cup at 12 furlongs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSISQou2aBA

[Kasept]

When the conversation is focusing on F&M's facing C/G/H's, there's only one race mare to discus, and that's Gallorette, and the discussion pretty much ends there. There has never been a filly/mare like her or will be. Faced males the majority of her career (72 starts) winning the Met, Whitney, Carter, Vosburgh, Brooklyn and whatever else. Beat Hoop Jr. the year he won the Derby.. Beat Stymie.. Faced Armed and Assault.. Carried highweight repeatedly against males and was rarely out of the money (72/21-20-13, $$445,000). Ranked in the B-H Top 100 at #45, behind only Ruffian (#34).

The greatest Maryland-bred of either sex, ever. A remarkable horse.

http://www.aikenracinghalloffame.com...ace_Record.pdf

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I've never seen her race...and have no idea how horses from the 40's would stack up against horses from today---but she was an all-time great...that is for sure.

I've seen a lot of fillies who would have been very successful at the right distances against top class colts....they just never had the chance.

I want to say that Surfside locked up an eclipse for champion 3yo filly earlier on this decade, when she had her way with a field of older males in the Grade 2 Clark Handicap.

Jolypha ran one other time on dirt, and was off the board, after her strong 3rd behind AP Indy. She was 0-for-4 in American Stakes and clearly doesn't belong on anyones best filly lists...but she really made a great account of herself when she ran in a race best suited to her style.

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by Kasept

When the conversation is focusing on F&M's facing C/G/H's, there's only one race mare to discus, and that's Gallorette, and the discussion pretty much ends there. There has never been a filly/mare like her or will be. Faced males the majority of her career (72 starts) winning the Met, Whitney, Carter, Vosburgh, Brooklyn and whatever else. Beat Hoop Jr. the year he won the Derby.. Beat Stymie.. Faced Armed and Assault.. Carried highweight repeatedly against males and was rarely out of the money (72/21-20-13, $$445,000). Ranked in the B-H Top 100 at #45, behind only Ruffian (#34).

The greatest Maryland-bred of either sex, ever. A remarkable horse.

She does sound amazing!

I'd like to mention Sunline (48:32-9-3), the winner of 13 G1s and over $10 million in stakes (that's our currency of course, probably about US$6-7 million).

She won the Australian weight-for-age championship race the Cox Plate in 1999 and 2000, beating horses the quality of Tie The Knot (himself a winner of 13 G1s), the Doncaster Handicap over a mile as a 3yo in 1999 and again under an all-time record weight for a mare in 2002, and beat Hong Kong's champion horse of the time in Fairy King Prawn on his own turf in the 2000 Hong Kong Mile.

One of the all-time greatest horses NZ has ever produced, right up with Phar Lap (although I admit he was Australian he was born here), Balmerino, Kindergarten, Mainbrace and some of our other legendary horses. Certainly our greatest ever mare.

RTR has certainly made a fantastic first few steps along the way to greatness though, but she does have a long way to go yet.

[byalip]

R2R...not yet.

But her dam, Better Than Honor, deserves a top spot. Producing back-to-back Belmont winners is a milestone.

As a die-hard Xtra Heat fan, I'd like to at least give a shout out for her accomplishments. She deserves a mention for durability....26 wins in 35 starts. Sure, some of her competition was suspect, but she ran with as much as 127 pounds without missing any time off for injuries.

[parsixfarms]

While I'm not sure how times from last Saturday (it seemed like the track was reasonably glib) would compare to the corresponding race dates, it is interesting to note that the CCA Oaks was contested at a mile and a half twenty five times. RTR's winning time on Saturday was eclipsed by the following six fillies (in reverse chronological order): Valley Victory, Wayward Lass, Revidere, Ruffian (2:27), Chris Evert, and Magazine (also 2:27). There are some real powerhouse names there; I agree with those that say it is premature to judge RTR's place in history.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The track was quite fast....and the final time for the Belmont Stakes would have been much faster had it not been such an incredibly slow paced race.

Cotton Blossom ran over 54 seconds faster, winning the Acorn, which is a half mile shorter, earlier in the card. She'd have needed to pair together a couple of 27 flat quarters to slightly better the Belmont's final time.

That really underlines how the comically slow pace effected the final time...and made the final time slower than it would have been had the race been a turely run race.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The track was quite fast....and the final time for the Belmont Stakes would have been much faster had it not been such an incredibly slow paced race.

Cotton Blossom ran over 54 seconds faster, winning the Acorn, which is a half mile shorter, earlier in the card. She'd have needed to pair together a couple of 27 flat quarters to slightly better the Belmont's final time.

That really underlines how the comically slow pace effected the final time...and made the final time slower than it would have been had the race been a turely run race.

It was reminscent of this years Blue Grass.

[parsixfarms]

If it was a truely run race (6F in 1:12 or so), I doubt Rags to Riches would have won. The fact that the pace was slow gave JR a chance to allow her to settle after her stumble at the break. I suspect that if the pace had been faster, she'd have been playing catch-up from the beginning and likely would have tired from those efforts.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I've never seen her race...and have no idea how horses from the 40's would stack up against horses from today---but she was an all-time great...that is for sure.

I've seen a lot of fillies who would have been very successful at the right distances against top class colts....they just never had the chance.

I want to say that Surfside locked up an eclipse for champion 3yo filly earlier on this decade, when she had her way with a field of older males in the Grade 2 Clark Handicap.

Jolypha ran one other time on dirt, and was off the board, after her strong 3rd behind AP Indy. She was 0-for-4 in American Stakes and clearly doesn't belong on anyones best filly lists...but she really made a great account of herself when she ran in a race best suited to her style.

well after jolypha retired, frankel said she was one of the three best fillies/mares he ever had in his barn.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by hemaih

Ouija Board is one of the greats

She wasn't even the best mare in Europe/GB last year; that was Pride, who beat up on boys instead of retreating to the f/m competition. Ouija Board was best of her generation at 3 in Britain, and lots better than anything we had in the US to put up against her. But one of the greats? I beg to differ.